FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[PolarCat]

New look at Bates

http://www.sunjournal.com/new-look-bobcats-embracing-new-era-of-bates-college-football/

New game uniforms unveiled- final 75 man roster posted. A lot of excitement in Lewiston.

From the article: "The Bobcats' helmets also will have new decals this year".

Look, I am thrilled that there is a new staff, a new offensive scheme, and a new atmosphere at Garcellon.  I'm excited that the Cats have a full 75 man roster for a change.  And I am happy that Fein found the $$$ for new threads (my kid's home uni last year had been patched and rips sewn a zillion times, and the white road jerseys were so old the equipment manager could no longer get the accumulated mud and grass stains out of them). 

But DECALS?  The boys desperately needed new helmets.  It's sad that in this era of CTE awareness, the Administration cheaped out and got them decals. Going for a snazzy new look instead of state-of-the-art protection.

[lumbercat]

PC

44 new helmets- and a new fitting system. Older helmets discarded.
Helmets old or new have new decals applied each year-  they are changing the design from the old block B to a new design that remains to be seen.

These uni's are Coach Harriman's design so I think Coach Hall is looking to have some input in the new look so the Helmet design will be his.

It's a good thing but it's truly long overdue. Fein has delivered increased funds for the program. The folks in Lane Hall are said to be all in.

The overall recruiting budget for the entire athletic department has been doubled.

After all the frills we'll see how they perform on the field.

[Trin9-0]

Wait, where was the accusation?  Every year Devanney has more FY players - both recruits and walk-ons - than any other NESCAC school.  That's not open to conjecture, it's an established fact.  And every one of those potential FY FB players was approved by Admissions. 

LC just stated the well-established fact that there are more FB players admitted in Hartford than anywhere else.  (Some of them go on to make the team as an upperclassman, and pose under scoreboards).  Are you claiming that is incorrect?

PolarCat, below is the comment that I interpreted as an accusation:

Devanney has everyone sold in Hartford on giving him the latitude to bring in this many football players or candidates.

To me, this is an insinuation that Devanney has the power within the admissions office to allow more football players to be admitted beyond the allotted TIPS. I attempted to clarify, not seeing a correlation between Devanney and the admission decision of a non TIP'd applicant, and was given the explanation that Trinity's "standards are different." Well, if that's the case and Trinity's standards are just SO low then why, lumbercat, would Devanney need to be involved at all? What would he need to sell, and to whom? Why must he be given latitude?

What I take issue with is the assumption that simply because football players want to attend Trinity that somehow the coaching staff must be applying undue pressure on admissions or receiving disproportionate leeway. A few pages back nescac1 wrote an excellent and succinct account of the inherent advantages and disadvantages of the various NESCAC football programs. Trinity, like nearly all others, has its advantages but this is not one of them.


As for your "established fact that is not open to conjecture"...
While Trinity's reported number of incoming freshmen is indeed large this year, in both of the previous two years Trinity announced via Twitter just 21 commitments.

Below is the two year average of the other top NESCAC programs' commitments per their Twitter accounts:
Amherst 24 (21 & 27)
Wesleyan 24 (25 & 23)
Middlebury 22 (28 & 16)
Tufts 22 (26 & 18)

As you can see, aside from this year, Trinity is on par (actually below) below the average number of incoming recruits for top NESCAC programs. As is the case with most things, it seems quality remains more important than quantity.

[ColbyFootball]

Wait, where was the accusation?  Every year Devanney has more FY players - both recruits and walk-ons - than any other NESCAC school.  That's not open to conjecture, it's an established fact.  And every one of those potential FY FB players was approved by Admissions. 

LC just stated the well-established fact that there are more FB players admitted in Hartford than anywhere else.  (Some of them go on to make the team as an upperclassman, and pose under scoreboards).  Are you claiming that is incorrect?

PolarCat, below is the comment that I interpreted as an accusation:

Devanney has everyone sold in Hartford on giving him the latitude to bring in this many football players or candidates.

To me, this is an insinuation that Devanney has the power within the admissions office to allow more football players to be admitted beyond the allotted TIPS. I attempted to clarify, not seeing a correlation between Devanney and the admission decision of a non TIP'd applicant, and was given the explanation that Trinity's "standards are different." Well, if that's the case and Trinity's standards are just SO low then why, lumbercat, would Devanney need to be involved at all? What would he need to sell, and to whom? Why must he be given latitude?

What I take issue with is the assumption that simply because football players want to attend Trinity that somehow the coaching staff must be applying undue pressure on admissions or receiving disproportionate leeway. A few pages back nescac1 wrote an excellent and succinct account of the inherent advantages and disadvantages of the various NESCAC football programs. Trinity, like nearly all others, has its advantages but this is not one of them.


As for your "established fact that is not open to conjecture"...
While Trinity's reported number of incoming freshmen is indeed large this year, in both of the previous two years Trinity announced via Twitter just 21 commitments.

Below is the two year average of the other top NESCAC programs' commitments per their Twitter accounts:
Amherst 24 (21 & 27)
Wesleyan 24 (25 & 23)
Middlebury 22 (28 & 16)
Tufts 22 (26 & 18)

As you can see, aside from this year, Trinity is on par (actually below) below the average number of incoming recruits for top NESCAC programs. As is the case with most things, it seems quality remains more important than quantity.

Please stop. Don't you know by now that this Board is not the place for facts. I can see a few minus K's flying your way. Unless they used their quota up on me. lol

[PolarCat]

So a FY who shows up for preseason only counts if he has already been introduced via Twitter?

Or are disputing the statement that Trinity consistently has more FY's show up than can make the roster?  Let's not quibble about who is a tip, who is a protect, and who was introduced by Twitter, or (the Hoody's favorite) My Face.  Simple question: is or isn't Trin admitting more FY football players than can be rostered?

I've already posted that I can think of legitimate reasons why the Bants get so many HS football players.  And maybe some of the kids who don't make the cut were recruited as lax bros, hockey players, or wrestlers (like one of last year's scoreboard posers).  So I'm not insinuating that there is necessarily anything underhanded going on.  But humor me with an honest answer to my question.

[lumbercat]

Wait, where was the accusation?  Every year Devanney has more FY players - both recruits and walk-ons - than any other NESCAC school.  That's not open to conjecture, it's an established fact.  And every one of those potential FY FB players was approved by Admissions. 

LC just stated the well-established fact that there are more FB players admitted in Hartford than anywhere else.  (Some of them go on to make the team as an upperclassman, and pose under scoreboards).  Are you claiming that is incorrect?

PolarCat, below is the comment that I interpreted as an accusation:

Devanney has everyone sold in Hartford on giving him the latitude to bring in this many football players or candidates.

To me, this is an insinuation that Devanney has the power within the admissions office to allow more football players to be admitted beyond the allotted TIPS. I attempted to clarify, not seeing a correlation between Devanney and the admission decision of a non TIP'd applicant, and was given the explanation that Trinity's "standards are different." Well, if that's the case and Trinity's standards are just SO low then why, lumbercat, would Devanney need to be involved at all? What would he need to sell, and to whom? Why must he be given latitude?

What I take issue with is the assumption that simply because football players want to attend Trinity that somehow the coaching staff must be applying undue pressure on admissions or receiving disproportionate leeway. A few pages back nescac1 wrote an excellent and succinct account of the inherent advantages and disadvantages of the various NESCAC football programs. Trinity, like nearly all others, has its advantages but this is not one of them.


As for your "established fact that is not open to conjecture"...
While Trinity's reported number of incoming freshmen is indeed large this year, in both of the previous two years Trinity announced via Twitter just 21 commitments.

Below is the two year average of the other top NESCAC programs' commitments per their Twitter accounts:
Amherst 24 (21 & 27)
Wesleyan 24 (25 & 23)
Middlebury 22 (28 & 16)
Tufts 22 (26 & 18)

As you can see, aside from this year, Trinity is on par (actually below) below the average number of incoming recruits for top NESCAC programs. As is the case with most things, it seems quality remains more important than quantity.

Trin-

If you are basing your numbers on Twitter internet accounts, you've got a problem. Look at the Colby Twitter thread this year and tell me how many recruits they are bringing in???------be careful of mistakes and duplications. If you look you will see what I mean.

Bates Twitter shows 21 or 22 and they brought in 26. Williams doesn't post anything and Wesleyan and Amherst actually have 3 or 4 recruits that were not included on twitter posts. Bowdoin shows 3 more than the actual guys who showed up.

Lets boil it down to this, when you are bringing 85-90 guys to camp year after year and a number other teams are bringing in anywhere from 65 to 75, give or take, you are admitting more football players. Its pretty simple. Once more I will say good for Trinity and their commitment to winning.

And please don't tell me the Bants recruited and admited 22 or 23 players but then found another 15 football guys from the list of admitted students. That was one of your better spins.

As Colby Football says- within the spirit of the rules you guys do a great job with the recruiting process but lets not characterize it as being consistent with the process at the other NESCAC schools.

If every school adhered to those practices we would have a very competitive conference as opposed to a split division. I'd love to see the Trinity structure and funding for all but at the end of the day it's the NESCAC and I don't think we'll see too much change in the immediate future.

[JoeBag]

I do not see a problem with recruiting more players each year than you can roster. Is Trinity the only program that does this?

[PolarCat]

Fair question.  LC has already covered the Maine schools.  Amherst recruits are guaranteed a roster spot their first year.  Can posters from Midd, Williams, Tufts, Wes and Hamilton share their experience?

I think LC was originally complimenting Trinity at getting anywhere from 75 to 90 FY FB players through Admissions.  I think the other NESCAC staffs would love to have some of Devanney's secret sauce, to sprinkle on their own Admissions Departments.

[Hamiltonian]

Hamilton pretty much never cuts anyone.  usually not suffering from the problem of too many players.  and I'm pretty sure that they don't cut recruits in the first year.  there are guys who may never see the field in a game, but they stay on the team if they want.  at least that's my perception of the last couple of years.

[Jonny Utah]

Hamilton pretty much never cuts anyone.  usually not suffering from the problem of too many players.  and I'm pretty sure that they don't cut recruits in the first year.  there are guys who may never see the field in a game, but they stay on the team if they want.  at least that's my perception of the last couple of years.

Kids I know who have gone to Tufts say the same.  Although the coach will let them remain on the team, it really just means they can practice and not suit up for any game and they cannot play in any JV games either (this was true at other Nescac schools that had JV teams anyway).

[Trin9-0]

So a FY who shows up for preseason only counts if he has already been introduced via Twitter?

Or are disputing the statement that Trinity consistently has more FY's show up than can make the roster?  Let's not quibble about who is a tip, who is a protect, and who was introduced by Twitter, or (the Hoody's favorite) My Face.  Simple question: is or isn't Trin admitting more FY football players than can be rostered?

I've already posted that I can think of legitimate reasons why the Bants get so many HS football players.  And maybe some of the kids who don't make the cut were recruited as lax bros, hockey players, or wrestlers (like one of last year's scoreboard posers).  So I'm not insinuating that there is necessarily anything underhanded going on.  But humor me with an honest answer to my question.

My point of contention, and then I hope we can just agree to disagree, is lumbercat's claim that Devanney has "sold the admissions office on giving him latitude to bring in football players". He defended the remark by claiming that Trinity's standards are different than its NESCAC peers which (to the extent that is true) is a completely different argument all together and has nothing to do with his perceived influence of the coaching staff.

My honest answer to your question is that I do not know, and neither do you, how many non-recruited players try out for the Bantams (or any other team) as freshmen. The only resources are the programs' announcements of committed recruits and ultimately the rosters. I'm certain there are freshmen who don't make the final rosters because they were cut, or decide not to play for whatever reason.

The point, once again, is that if an applicant is accepted based on their own academic merit then whether or not they decide to try out for the football team had no bearing on their admission and is therefore irrelevant to the conversation. For many of the reasons you've listed there is no shortage of athletes who wish to continue their careers at Trinity. This does not mean the coaching staff is exerting any additional influence on the admissions process outside of making the cases for their allotted number of TIPS.

As Colby Football says- within the spirit of the rules you guys do a great job with the recruiting process but lets not characterize it as being consistent with the process at the other NESCAC schools.

If every school adhered to those practices we would have a very competitive conference as opposed to a split division. I'd love to see the Trinity structure and funding for all but at the end of the day it's the NESCAC and I don't think we'll see too much change in the immediate future.

You're confusing the inability of certain programs to attract players with Trinity doing something that isn't completely within the rules. Bates can't even reach the roster limit (the Bobcats averaged just 66 players over the past three seasons). Is that because nobody wants to play for a hapless doormat or because the Bates admissions department is turning away qualified applicants because they play football? Your thinly veiled assertions that Trinity's recruiting "practices" are the reason for the haves and the have nots within the NESCAC is comical. It's obvious that Trinity does a excellent job of recruiting, and that great players want to play there. The same can be said for many NESCAC programs. But to imply that their success is due to bending the rules, and/or that other teams relative lack of success is because Trinity is accepting all the good players and then cutting them is absurd.

Finally, I'm curious if you actually have any idea of the football budgets for any NESCAC school? You insinuate to know that Trinity spends an inordinate amount more on football than its peers but provide no evidence. Is this just your assumption? As someone who has worked in fundraising at three NESCAC schools, I can assure you that all athletics budgets are extremely tight and much of the funding for the programs comes from donations. I'm sure the renovations at Garcelon Field, the new equipment and uniforms you posted about, as well as the coaching staff of 9 at Bates were all costly investments. Does this mean that the administration increased funding for football to bring it inline with your perception of what other schools spend on football?

[Hamiltonian]

I'm pretty sure Hamilton's kids suit up, even if they don't play.  there may be some question as to whether they travel.  but my perception is that everyone has been traveling, even those who never see the field.

[NBC93]

Hamiltonian,
My son was by Hamilton that they only recruit up to a 75 man roster specifically so they won't have to cut anyone.
When he told them he was going to Amherst they sounded concerned and asked if he was promised a roster spot. Not sure that they knew that Amherst doesn't cut FYs.

[Hamiltonian]

yeah, that sounds reasonable, although there are occasional whiffs of rumors that cuts may be made.  could be just motivation on super-hot August practice days.

[Hamiltonian]

in my humble opinion, this discussion never gets anywhere.  I know the Ivies better.  Are Harvard's admissions standards tougher than Cornell's?  you bet.  does Harvard nevertheless usually wind up with more talent than Cornell, at least over the past couple of decades? yes. (no more Ed Marinaro's at Cornell)   so Harvard would claim that they just happen to find qualified, or close-to-qualified, guys who just happen to be great football players.  but no one around the league believes that.  heck, I once had a Stanford person tell me that THEY don't bend their admissions rules to get players.  right, so the hardest school in the country to get into just happens to have pro-level football players.  it's the super race!  there's some level of b.s. in all these processes.  (at least the SEC doesn't pretend.)  that being said, NESCAC is SO much cleaner and straighter and nicer that I really don't see the point in hashing over this stuff.  not that it isn't fun to read, though!