FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Grabowski]

CAC is cleaner in part because their 2-3 bands (educated guess) are easier to digest than the 5 bands the Ivies juggle.  Re: the Stanford point, I had a HS teammate with a full football scholarship offer to become a Michigan Wolverine contingent upon raising his GPA to 2.0!  Granted, this was another century...still, when I hear that a pro player went to Stanford, I don't assume he is a Stanford level intellect.

To finish the story on my old friend, he did it, played, graduated, and now seems to have done pretty well for himself.

[lumbercat]

You're confusing the inability of certain programs to attract players with Trinity doing something that isn't completely within the rules. Bates can't even reach the roster limit (the Bobcats averaged just 66 players over the past three seasons). Is that because nobody wants to play for a hapless doormat or because the Bates admissions department is turning away qualified applicants because they play football? Your thinly veiled assertions that Trinity's recruiting "practices" are the reason for the haves and the have nots within the NESCAC is comical. It's obvious that Trinity does a excellent job of recruiting, and that great players want to play there. The same can be said for many NESCAC programs. But to imply that their success is due to bending the rules, and/or that other teams relative lack of success is because Trinity is accepting all the good players and then cutting them is absurd.

Finally, I'm curious if you actually have any idea of the football budgets for any NESCAC school? You insinuate to know that Trinity spends an inordinate amount more on football than its peers but provide no evidence. Is this just your assumption? As someone who has worked in fundraising at three NESCAC schools, I can assure you that all athletics budgets are extremely tight and much of the funding for the programs comes from donations. I'm sure the renovations at Garcelon Field, the new equipment and uniforms you posted about, as well as the coaching staff of 9 at Bates were all costly investments. Does this mean that the administration increased funding for football to bring it inline with your perception of what other schools spend on football?

Trin 8-0

Where did I say Trinity broke the rules?  Ive said repeatedly they do things differently because they choose to. You seem to have a hang-up with this-- no one said Trinity was cheating that I heard.

I am not confusing anything with regard to the "ability of certain programs to attract players". Attracting players is not a problem in the NESCAC.
THE PROBLEM IS GETTING THEM IN. They recruit very hard at all NESCAC schools. All schools have a list of recruits which is 300 or more.  All programs would love to get 30 or 35 guys in but unfortunately Admissions says NO fairly frequently.

This was a huge problem at Bowdoin for Caputi which arguably contributed to his demise. Admissions wouldn't let many of his recruits in. To his credit, Coach Wells has been able to attain more leniency from Admissions this year and has been able to produce a very strong recruiting class. At all NESCAC venues its a well documented struggle to get recruits admitted. It's tougher in different places at different times depending upon overall support and commitment to winning.

I can tell you, first hand, in recent years that Bates has lost  many of their top recruits to Admissions. Countless cases I know where they identify top prospects but they don't get in. I know specifics where they have gone back across the street to admissions multiple times but they still can't get many kids in. You won't hear them complaining about it openly but it's a reality they are hoping to change.

At Trinity they have a broader scope and will admit some of these kids in and place them with the Tutorial program. As I've said in the past this is a great concept  and a profound credit to the Trinity Football commitment. I wish other schools would make this commitment of providing tutors and study assistance for FY football players but it's just not the case. It's evidence of an elevated commitment to football, I wish all the NESCACs would do this.

Are you saying Amherst and Williams only bring in 25 recruits because they don't have any others?  Thats ridiculous, THEY CANT GET 37 PLAYERS ADMITTED.

As for finances consider the financial aid packages that go along with acceptance. Following acceptance, or projected acceptance, to more than one school it often comes down to the depth of the financial aid package offered. This is not part of the Athletics or football budget per se but it can vary greatly from school to school. At schools with a stronger commitment to winning from top to bottom, including admissions, the packages are more lucrative and more prevalent . In specific cases I have known in past years I have seen very strong financial aid support for Football candidates at Trinity. This is commendable and another feather in their cap especially with the aid they have provided to many minority athletes in the program. I know they are specifically trying to do more in this area at the CBB schools but no one does as good a job as Trinity. Again, a very commendable practice in Hartford where they do a very good job and other NESCAC programs are trying to emulate.
However, there is a significant financial commitment toward achieving this goal which Trinity is willing to make.  Others have been slower to make this leap.

I'm going to close this out with a restatement of my original premise. Top to bottom, administration, faculty and admissions, no one in the NESCAC makes a bigger and more unified commitment to winning Football games than Trinity.

[Jonny Utah]

I'm pretty sure Hamilton's kids suit up, even if they don't play.  there may be some question as to whether they travel.  but my perception is that everyone has been traveling, even those who never see the field.

Well there is a roster limit so it is kind of silly to dress and not be able to be in the game.  I'm not sure of the sideline rules though.

[JoeBag]

Lumbercat- just wanted to correct one of your statements:

"As for finances consider the financial aid packages that go along with acceptance. Following acceptance, or projected acceptance, to more than one school it often comes down to the depth of the financial aid package offered. This is not part of the Athletics or football budget per se but it can vary greatly from school to school. At schools with a stronger commitment to winning from top to bottom, including admissions, the packages are more lucrative and more prevalent."

This is totally inaccurate. The NCAA audits FinAid at all D3 schools.
http://www.ncaa.org/division-iii-financial-aid-reporting-program

[Hamiltonian]

I'm pretty sure Hamilton's kids suit up, even if they don't play.  there may be some question as to whether they travel.  but my perception is that everyone has been traveling, even those who never see the field.

Well there is a roster limit so it is kind of silly to dress and not be able to be in the game.  I'm not sure of the sideline rules though.

It may be silly, but it definitely happens.

[amh63]

There is an interesting story in the WSJ today on D1 sports.  Seems that the question of financial aid packages to sport team players is in the spotlight again.  Yes, " how much should players be compensated for their skills/talent" question has arisen again.   
Just thought it is something to think about here when financial matters are discussed.
Oh yes....there was a football tweet pic on the Amherst website.   Saw it via a coach's wife topic.  Wife of the Def. Coordinator has won a political primary.  Anyway...the football team was at a ice cream bar getting treats...after practice.  HFC was sitting nearby looking at his phone.  Expect HFC was going to pay the huge bill.  Now how does that fit into the football player compensation...in the Nescac

[lumbercat]

Joe-

The awards are reviewed and monitored but they can vary from player to player and school to school.

As long as there is compliance with NCAA guidelines its an Admissions call where/how they award Athletic aid as long as they maintain the requisite balance with awards to non athletes.

These rules limit the top end of aid they can give to athletes based on the proportional comparison with non athletes.  This limitation is a pretty high ceiling which doesn't typically come into play. Not every school pushes the limits, nor can they, given the varied strength of the Financial Aid budgets at different schools.

I have no idea if they extend entirely to this limit at Trinity but clearly some schools cannot afford to push to these limits others simply elect not to.

The point is, it's still a pretty broad financial decision in how far a school can or will go on aid to athletes as long as they don't exceed the limit.

Consider this--School A has an overall aid expenditure of "X" and school B has an overall budget of "X plus 20%". School B theoretically has 20% more to give to athletes----if they WANT to.  School B has control over a larger potential expenditure and may elect to "max out" on Athletics, or.........they may actually opt to give more to gifted students and less to Athletics. A lot of discretion and subjectivity within the guidelines.

There are no minimums in the rule so I am saying this is not a significant limiting factor unless every school is pushing the very high end of Athletic Aid and I believe this is not the case everywhere.

[JoeBag]

" In specific cases I have known in past years I have seen very strong financial aid support for Football candidates at Trinity."

Somehow we missed out on this generosity in spite of asking for $$! 

[gridiron]

Regarding financial aid packages, I know of at least one instance where the playing field didn't appear to be equal.  I am referencing a highly sought after recruit who was offered a financial aid package that was $2,000 less than another NESCAC school.  When the father told the financial aid people that because of the difference his child was going to the other school, the offer was matched.  Full disclosure, the sport was not football (WBB), and Trinity was not one of the two schools involved.

I'm not knowledgeable regarding how things are supposed to work but know from posters here there is supposed to be NCAA oversight. However, there does appear to be some latitude in certain situations.

[Pat Coleman]

Regarding financial aid packages, I know of at least one instance where the playing field didn't appear to be equal.  I am referencing a highly sought after recruit who was offered a financial aid package that was $2,000 less than another NESCAC school.  When the father told the financial aid people that because of the difference his child was going to the other school, the offer was matched.  Full disclosure, the sport was not football (WBB), and Trinity was not one of the two schools involved.

I'm not knowledgeable regarding how things are supposed to work but know from posters here there is supposed to be NCAA oversight. However, there does appear to be some latitude in certain situations.

This stuff happens all the time. But it also happens with non-student-athletes.

[gridiron]

Back to a recent topic--student athletes choosing Ivy League or NESCAC and perceived value of degrees.  The recent Kraft move, I believe, represents the thought process of almost all aspiring young athletes fortunate to have those choices.  Clearly, the young man selected Dartmouth to get a great education/degree with the hopes of playing D1 football.  When things weren't working out as hoped on the field, aspirations led him to the NESCAC as a Colby Mule to again get a great education/degree with the hopes of playing football in a different program.  For his most recent move, with his eye on the value/name recognition associated with the degree, he decided to return to Dartmouth.  He did not elect to transfer to a different NESCAC school (for those who think there is a significant difference from Colby) despite having the option to do so. 

I agree with Hamiltonian in that when hiring I personnally view Ivy and NESCAC degrees very similarly.  However, in practice, I still maintain that with few exceptions (none of which I am personnally aware), athletic recruits select Ivy schools first and NESCAC second.  While they may later transfer in pursuit of a more favorable athletic situation, initially, they go Ivy.  It is precisely why during the recruiting process NESCAC coaches must wait for a recruit to first understand if Ivy is an option before committing to a NESCAC program.

[gridiron]

Thanks, Pat, for verifying.  And yes, non-student athletes sometimes also benefit.

[PolarCat]

Gridiron raises some very good points.  I'll add a counterpoint.  Some kids choose NESCAC over Ivies, and one of the reasons is the ability to play a second sport, and/or to study abroad.

Polar Kitten had a very generous offer from a prestigious DI program.  Not an Ivy, but with a comparable cachet, and the offer included an over 50% scholarship.  She went NESCAC instead for a variety of reasons: ability to compete for a starting spot as a FY, opportunity to play a second sport, and ability to study abroad.  Her semester in Vienna was remarkable, and truly a life changing experience.

The DI diploma would have carried every bit as much weight in the workplace or in grad school applications as her NESCAC diploma (while saving dad a considerable amount of tuition) but Mom and I always knew she made the right decision.

Kraft went to Colby as a junior.  Anyone know if he did foreign study his Junior spring?  If so, he may have had the best of both worlds.

[Hamiltonian]

except... bouncing around from one school to another is not, in my view, the ideal college experience.  you join a school, a program, a class, you meet your friends for life (I'm still close to my guys after almost 40 years).  doesn't mean transferring can't produce a good experience.  but I'd rather be at a place for the full four years.  nothing like it in life.  to quote the great Tom Lehrer: "bright college days, oh carefree days that fly.... soon we'll be sliding down the razor blade of life..."

[PolarCat]

When the Dartmouth Trustees decided to admit women to the Class of 1976, there was one problem:  the College didn't have enough dorm rooms for all the accepted students.  The solution was the Dartmouth Plan. 

The academic year was divided into trimesters instead of semesters.  11 semesters were required for graduation, with a minimum of 33 courses.  Every student was required to spend one summer term at Dartmouth, and encouraged to spend one or more semesters off campus, studying abroad, or at one of our exchange programs in the States (University of California at San Diego was a favorite choice).

So it was normal, even 40 years ago, to have a rotating cast of classmate friends over our 4 years in Hanover.  Didn't seem to hurt our class cohesion one bit.

In effect, young Kraft may have had his own version of the Dartmouth Plan, but spending his off campus semester(s) in Waterville instead of San Diego.

BTW we had a pretty good middle linebacker in our class, a fellow by the name of Reggie Williams, who had a stellar career with the Bengals (before they became the Bungles).  I'd take Reggie over Ed Marinaro any day.