FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[ColbyFootball]

I listen with great interest to all of the comments about the failures of some programs, i.e. Bowdoin. I guess I'm just a simple minded football guy, but I don't get it. Each school brings something different and special to the table, and as the HC you need to sell that special something. Coaching is not just x's and o's, you have to get players. That said, coaches that are not getting it done in games must be replaced. I understand recruiting budgets aren't big in the nescac, but with social media and the internet, you really do need less money if you work wisely. Utilize contacts with as many HS coaches as possible, and constantly try to increase the number of those contacts. Develop a stream of players. It takes time, but it's worth it.

Think about it, if you can bring in 20-25 players a year, and only lose kids to injuries and not walking away from the program, you will roster 76 kids every year.

So given the thousands upon thousands of players nationwide, if you can't sell your nescac school to 20-25 kids every year something is wrong. That should be the HC's goal.  And make hard working team players a priority. Make them buy into the program by showing them you're all in. And then coach the heck out of them. 

I refuse to believe a single nescac program cannot be competitive if they follow this approach.

Colby, while we hear you on numbers, your view is an overly simplistic view of the world. It isn't just a numbers game. It's not just getting 20-25 kids but getting the RIGHT 20-25 kids...look at your cross state rival....Bowdoin has what, like 35 FY's including the supposed next coming of the FLB himself (aka, Fawn's Lil Brother aka Jared Leibowitz) and they look like they are regressing, not progressing...quality, not quantity...

Oh, and as far as our lil wager, we drink Bullit 10 and smoke Montecristo #2's....we'll coordinate schedules to collect....btw, we would have given you 28, which would have still been plenty enough...

I may have an overly simplistic view of the world, that's why I referred to myself as  a "simple minded football guy". 

And, I will stick to my views of building a program, something I've done successfully on a much much lower level. Both in football, and in another area. And of course it's about getting the right 25 or so kids.

But, I refuse to accept that an elite academic school like Bowdoin with a rich history of alumni, cannot convince 25 of the right players a year nationwide, geez you can throw in Canada, to enroll.

And I also said to be competitive. No become the next Trinity.

And yes, I owe you a drink.

[ColbyFootball]

I listen with great interest to all of the comments about the failures of some programs, i.e. Bowdoin. I guess I'm just a simple minded football guy, but I don't get it. Each school brings something different and special to the table, and as the HC you need to sell that special something. Coaching is not just x's and o's, you have to get players. That said, coaches that are not getting it done in games must be replaced. I understand recruiting budgets aren't big in the nescac, but with social media and the internet, you really do need less money if you work wisely. Utilize contacts with as many HS coaches as possible, and constantly try to increase the number of those contacts. Develop a stream of players. It takes time, but it's worth it.

Think about it, if you can bring in 20-25 players a year, and only lose kids to injuries and not walking away from the program, you will roster 76 kids every year.

So given the thousands upon thousands of players nationwide, if you can't sell your nescac school to 20-25 kids every year something is wrong. That should be the HC's goal.  And make hard working team players a priority. Make them buy into the program by showing them you're all in. And then coach the heck out of them. 

I refuse to believe a single nescac program cannot be competitive if they follow this approach.

Colby

On paper you're premise makes a lot of sense. If all NESCAC schools and Football programs were the same it would have validity.

You are delusional if you think your Colby program operates the same way and has the same advantages as those at Trinity or Wesleyan. You need to look at the structure of those programs top to bottom to understand the difference.

Colby didnt lose to Trinity the last 5 years because they had an inferior coach. While that surely was a contributing factor you are painting all the NESCAC programs with the same brush and that just isn't the case. Many differences from Presidents to trustees, alumni pressure, faculty and admissions. Its not unlike any other college conference at any level. For a number of reasons its not the same everywhere, not that simple.

All the Ivies are the same aren't they......why can't Columbia win?

Much more to it than you've been able to gather during your tenure with the mules.

Please read my last post to Nescacman. Much of it applies to your post. Just one reminder, I said become competitive, not become a championship team. That becomes a bit more complicated, i.e. Middlebury, Wesleyan.

As for Columbia, I guess you haven't seen enough improvement since Bagnoli took over. I have. He took a program that would couldn't win a game, and couldn't even keep many close to winning some and competing. And that's on a much greater scale in a much tougher situation. So rather than hurt my argument, you support it.

[lumbercat]

Bagnoli has brought improvements- doing a very good job, but if you think he's got the same advantages as the Ivy elite you're mistaken. Im not saying they can't win but It's an uphill battle for Columbia as it is for the lower tier of the NESCAC.

[Nescacman]

The same reason why you would get on the board and tout your prediction record (which isn't even against a spread). You're looking to be an insider. I enjoy your posts, very entertaining, but you have to stop making up stuff up.

I don't buy the Wells thing because I know some people involved very closely and I'm calling you out......I'm not looking for a name, Im looking for where you got your fake news. Post it here.

We are not looking to argue...we are trying to be "nicer" in 2018 Lumber...and we appreciate your passion and dedication to the Board...

1. We don't divulge our sources. That's one of the reasons they (and yes, we have multiple sources) feel comfortable speaking to us candidly about all things NESCAC.
2. We don't make anything up. Never have, never will. Why would we? Just ask several posters on this Board with whom we communicate with privately as to the accuracy of our inside info.
3. We recognize that sometimes the truth hurts. We were onto the Kelton charade early in his tenure and it took awhile for the TTUN faithful to get on the bus with us. They eventually did and looking back recognize the error in their ways. Make no bones about it...Wells is not a happy camper....how could he be. It appears that the Bowdoin administration did a bait and switch on him and now he is stuck. Our gut is that this will not end well for either Bowdoin or HCOF Wells. And btw, maybe the next man up should be a guy that knows the NESCAC well and can actually recruit, D Coordinator Shem Bloom.

[Nescacman]

Bagnoli has brought improvements- doing a very good job, but if you think he's got the same advantages as the Ivy elite you're mistaken. Im not saying they can't win but It's an uphill battle for Columbia as it is for the lower tier of the NESCAC.

And just a word or two on Coach Bags, who recruited members of our group to play for him at Union and Penn...Columbia may or may not ultimately succeed, but they certainly showed commitment in hiring Coach Bags...this is the sort (not the level) of commitment that the C-B-B-H needs to make to change the direction of their programs...

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/sports/ncaafootball/at-columbia-al-bagnoli-is-building-from-the-bottom.html

[polbear73]

The same reason why you would get on the board and tout your prediction record (which isn't even against a spread). You're looking to be an insider. I enjoy your posts, very entertaining, but you have to stop making up stuff up.

I don't buy the Wells thing because I know some people involved very closely and I'm calling you out......I'm not looking for a name, Im looking for where you got your fake news. Post it here.

3. We recognize that sometimes the truth hurts. We were onto the Kelton charade early in his tenure and it took awhile for the TTUN faithful to get on the bus with us. They eventually did and looking back recognize the error in their ways. Make no bones about it...Wells is not a happy camper....how could he be. It appears that the Bowdoin administration did a bait and switch on him and now he is stuck. Our gut is that this will not end well for either Bowdoin or HCOF Wells. And btw, maybe the next man up should be a guy that knows the NESCAC well and can actually recruit, D Coordinator Shem Bloom.

NESCACMAN:  I don't know anything about this personally but it wouldn't surprise me at all.  If I had to guess, Admissions is the major area of conflict and, if so, I don't think it was a bait and switch, but pure ignorance on the part of the Bowdoin Administration as to what it takes to build a Program, particularly the depth required, even on a 76 man roster.  And Shem Bloom would be a good choice. 

[PolarCat]

While we're talking about coaching, and since someone else already brought up the Ivy League ... I think it's pretty cool my alma mater did this, and I'd be amazed if there isn't at least one NESCAC Administration (or at least one NESCAC Title IX Officer) who's asking' "Why didn't we think of this?", and "How soon can we follow suit?"  If anything, it might temper the SJW complaints that  NESCAC Football is an Old Boys Network.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2018/09/13/dartmouth-hires-alexandria-native-as-first-female-division-i-college-football-coach/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4873f0d4f568

I'd expected a female K to be the one to break through the locker room ceiling, but when you think about it, this makes perfect sense (particularly with her resume).

[lumbercat]

The same reason why you would get on the board and tout your prediction record (which isn't even against a spread). You're looking to be an insider. I enjoy your posts, very entertaining, but you have to stop making up stuff up.

I don't buy the Wells thing because I know some people involved very closely and I'm calling you out......I'm not looking for a name, Im looking for where you got your fake news. Post it here.

We are not looking to argue...we are trying to be "nicer" in 2018 Lumber...and we appreciate your passion and dedication to the Board...

1. We don't divulge our sources. That's one of the reasons they (and yes, we have multiple sources) feel comfortable speaking to us candidly about things NESCAC.
2. We don't make anything up. Never have, never will. Why would we? Just ask several posters on this Board with whom we communicate with privately as to the accuracy of our inside info.
3. We recognize that sometimes the truth hurts. We were onto the Kelton charade early in his tenure and it took awhile for the TTUN faithful to get on the bus with us. They eventually did and looking back recognize the error in their ways. Make no bones about it...Wells is not a happy camper....how could he be. It appears that the Bowdoin administration did a bait and switch on him and now he is stuck. Our gut is that this will not end well for either Bowdoin or HCOF Wells. And btw, maybe the next man up should be a guy that knows the NESCAC well and can actually recruit, D Coordinator Shem Bloom.

I have direct information to the contrary- time will tell. Wells may not last in the job if he has another bad year regardless.

[jumpshot]

Nescacman ---

Why do you seem to take such pride in bashing Aaron Kelton over multiple years?

Think about it ---- you are hiding behind an undisclosed name, holding the power of the pen, clearly taking joy in someone else's professional shortcomings, likely never having met or spoken to Aaron or his wife and daughter, etc.

Certainly bullying is considered out of bounds in many settings ....and acute and chronic degrading of coaches or players crossing the line on other of Pat's boards has been shouted down numerous times in the past. Your tactic says more about you than Aaron.

My own view is that you should simply do what is right ....

[JEFFFAN]

Relating to the question of the future of football at Bowdoin (or Colby and Bates for that matter, given the comparative performance of the insitution in football) ... what should the realistic expectations be for these programs?   A bit of data never hurts.   The follwoing are the winning percentages of Bates and Bowdoin in football since 1981:

Bates    78-227 (winning percentage of 25%
Bowdoin     95-209 (winning percentage of 31%)
Colby     does not have historical records on the website

In fairness to our friends from Bowdoin, the Bates winning percentage over the past six years has been 40% while Bowdoin's winning percentage has only been 17%.  No wonder Polcat and Polbear73 are not happy campers!

But the larger question is what should these programs realistically aspire to in terms of performance in context of winning 1 out of 4 games over the past 37 years (Colby) and a little less than 1 out 3 (Bodowin)?  Is 50% a realistic target to define success?  My sense is that the administration and alumni of those schools should be ecstatic if they could get a program to a 50% won.loss percentage.

The broader point is that it is hard as hell to build a successful program agaisnt schools that have deep roots in football - have a geographic strength - and in some but not all cases have an academic strength.   The climb is a very, very steep one and to what level?

Curious about how posters from those schools - or others - would define success for our northen most bretherin?

[amh63]

Wow some interesting, entertaining and even somewhat heated discussions/posts here after just the first Nescac football weekend.  True, most of the games were somewhat lopsided games....except for the Amherst-Bates game that had the most senior HFC coach in the conf...Mills in his 22nd year and a coach in his first Year as the head person.  Learned a lot via the posts.  PolarCat's school with a female coach and PolarCat hinting towards a female kicker on the 75 person roster.  Also found out the name of the Columbia football field...Kraft...the Columbia alum who also owns a NFL team who has a grandson on the Big Green football team.  Making a lot of connections here on this board .  I do remember when Kraft field was built in the Harlem..ok just South of Harlem or JSOH in today's real estate jargon.  Columbia's basketball venue is under Kraft field.  A bit of trivia.
Lumbercat...thanks for your input to my question.  I basically have reached the same conclusion. It's all about the MONEY, HONEY!   Been to a bunch of college football stadiums in my business travels.  Walked around the Un of Michigan one when it was considered the biggest college venue...100,000 plus seating.  The Rose Bowl...IU, Cal, PennState's Old and newer ones, etc.  TCUN in the Big Ten? generates so much money that it funds all the sports teams at the school and also can pay its HFC more money than the college Prez.  I am digressing again. 
Awaiting Nescacman's promised conference weekend games comments.  Really want to hear comments wrt the game of the week....Cardinals vs Panthers.  Surprised by the score.

[polbear73]

Relating to the question of the future of football at Bowdoin (or Colby and Bates for that matter, given the comparative performance of the insitution in football) ... what should the realistic expectations be for these programs?   A bit of data never hurts.   The follwoing are the winning percentages of Bates and Bowdoin in football since 1981:

Bates    78-227 (winning percentage of 25%
Bowdoin     95-209 (winning percentage of 31%)
Colby     does not have historical records on the website

In fairness to our friends from Bowdoin, the Bates winning percentage over the past six years has been 40% while Bowdoin's winning percentage has only been 17%.  No wonder Polcat and Polbear73 are not happy campers!

But the larger question is what should these programs realistically aspire to in terms of performance in context of winning 1 out of 4 games over the past 37 years (Colby) and a little less than 1 out 3 (Bodowin)?  Is 50% a realistic target to define success?  My sense is that the administration and alumni of those schools should be ecstatic if they could get a program to a 50% won.loss percentage.

The broader point is that it is hard as hell to build a successful program agaisnt schools that have deep roots in football - have a geographic strength - and in some but not all cases have an academic strength.   The climb is a very, very steep one and to what level?

Curious about how posters from those schools - or others - would define success for our northen most bretherin?

A baseline of a game on either side of .500, competitive in almost every game, not a guaranteed win for the opponent. 

[Nescacman]

Nescacman ---

Why do you seem to take such pride in bashing Aaron Kelton over multiple years?

Think about it ---- you are hiding behind an undisclosed name, holding the power of the pen, clearly taking joy in someone else's professional shortcomings, likely never having met or spoken to Aaron or his wife and daughter, etc.

Certainly bullying is considered out of bounds in many settings ....and acute and chronic degrading of coaches or players crossing the line on other of Pat's boards has been shouted down numerous times in the past. Your tactic says more about you than Aaron.

My own view is that you should simply do what is right ....

Hahaha... . Big laughs from Team NESCACMAN...and please refer to us in the plural...thank you.

Ok, we'll do what's right....we wish the HCOF never left Willytown....!!!

And if you want to understand why we bring up the HCOF, first off, he is exhibit A of a bad coach single handidly bringing down a once great program (said program still has not fully recovered btw) and second, you need to understand the history. He deserves every bit of the criticism that he receives (from us and many others) on the Board all of which are based on hard, cold facts. That's not bullying, that's just being honest. And BTW, we have met him in person and were not impressed...

[Nescacman]

We love the Columbia and Bagnoli discussion...Let's continue that thread and extend it to the NESCAC...

If the C-B-B-H wanted to radically change the direction of their programs ala the Lions of Columbia, perhaps they would want to go out and hire a retired legendary coach like Coach Bags, pay him 2-3x more than the current most successful team in the conference (Tim Murphy at Harvard and yes, Bagnoli's deal at Columbia is that much richer than Murph's), give him really nice housing, give him a big pool of $$$ to hire really good assistants, commit admissions assistance and give him $$$ for equipment...

Do you think Coach Farley would jump at something like that or Coach Mills or Coach Devanney would leave their present cushy situations for that deal...something to ponder...

[nescac1]

Based on first week performance, NESCAC right now looks something like:
Wesleyan, Trinity, Williams, Tufts, Amherst, Middlebury, Bates, Hamilton, Colby, Bowdoin

But when taking into account talent levels and realistic expectations, the reality is likely more like:
Trinity, Wesleyan, Amherst, Williams, Tufts, Middlebury, Hamilton, Bates, Colby, Bowdoin

We shall see! 

As for the Maine programs, no one in NESCAC is ever going to poach other NESCAC coaches via extravagent compensation.  All of these schools are pretty tight with coaches' salaries and if one coach gets a huge raise, the other 30 at the school will complain and demand equitable treatment.  This isn't the SEC -- ain't gonna happen.  The only real way to poach another coach is to go from a worse-performing program to a significantly more desirable one (as opposed to the other way around), or with the promise of an administrative job / some other perk (like Whalen got at Wesleyan), which of course is not something any school can utilize more than once.  Any coach of the Maine programs is still going to have to get around the fact that they are recruiting against schools with much stronger football traditions and with closer proximity to the NESCAC recruiting base of Mass/CT/NY/NJ/PA.  And the Maine schools can't offer superior football facilities as a lure, especially now that Williams, Amherst, Trinity, Wesleyan have all completed major upgrades to previously-stale facilities.  The reality is that SOMEONE has to be last in NESCAC.  The coaching now looks really strong across the league -- but given that, it means that a few good coaches are going to end up at the bottom of the league, no matter how good a job they are doing given the constraints they have to deal with.  I mean, you can be the greatest football coach in the world but if you coach Indiana or Minnesota or Maryland or Rutgers, how often are you gonna beat out Ohio State or Wisconsin or Michigan or Penn State for football recruits?  It takes a perfect storm for the traditional bottom-tier teams in most leagues to rise to the top, and when they do, it is usually very short lived (think Northwestern's fairly short run atop the Big 10 -- and even Northwestern could sell an elite academic reputation, a gorgeous campus, a rich private institution, and an amazing neighborhood right outside Chicago).   Long-ingrained and long-established relative cache is very, very hard to overcome, unless you have some unique attribute to offer relative to your peers (e.g. Tufts and its proximity to Boston).   

I will say though that Bowdoin has the best location of the Maine schools in terms of proximity to recruits, and also the highest academic profile of that trio, plus a strong athletic culture in the aggregate, so it is a bit surprising that it hasn't been able to have more success, at least in the C-B-B.