FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Nescacman]

A big factor with Hamilton is the recruiting advantage they have in an area where they are the only NESCAC school around. It's a strong Football region in which they are often unopposed in terms of NESCAC competition. Much stronger football area than Maine, NH or Vermont.
Murray is familiar with the region and is recruiting well. The long bus rides are a challenge for the Buff n Blue but Coach Murray will continue to recruit like shooting fish in a barrel.

Typical NESCAC recruiting itineraries are...... CT: visit Trinity and Wes. Western Ma- hit Williams and Amherst. Maine- you can cover those 3 schools in a day.

For Western/ Northern NY kids it's the Buff n Blue.....unopposed.

Murray gets that and and Hamilton continues to improve- a great hire.

Lumber, we love ya but we want to clarify a few things:

1. New York State generally (and Western NY specifically) is not a historically strong football recruiting hotbed. Looking at the Class of 2019, of the top 250 recruitis in the country, not one single one is from New York. The top recruit in New York is the only 4-star recruit in the entire state and he is from NYC. The next 3 are three star recruits and they all come from NYC or Long Island. Although we recognize that the CONTS are not recruiting 3 and 4 star recruits, the fact that there are basically none in Upstate NY is indicative of the quality of HS football played there, which, IOO, does not hold a candle to NJ and PA and for that matter, MA and CT.
2. Hamilton may be the only NESCAC school in upstate NY, but they are not the only NESCAC school recruiting upstate NY and they are not the only top academic school recruiting in upstate NY. We know for a fact that TTUN (HCOF Raymond knows that area well from his days at St. Lawrence), Wes, Amhurst and Hartford State all hit that area hard. In addition, academically strong D3 schools like Union, RPI, U of R, and St. Lawrence as well as Cornell and Colgate are all recruiting similar kids. We know HCOF Murray has strong connections in the area from his days at Alfred, but he is hardly the only game in town.
3. We like HCOF Murray however, the comment that they continue to improve is certainly open to debate. This is Murray's 5th season as the HCOF of the Conts. This year they are 2-3 and they are 3-6, 3-5, 2-6, and 0-8 over the prior 4 seasons (10-28 overall). Hardly, IOO, worthy of "a great hire" label. For what it's worth, we forecast a 4-5 season for HAM when all is said in done this year. However, next year they will have to replace a Top 5 NESCAC QB, in Kenny Gray.
4. One other interesting HAM tidbit: The "Buff & Blue" has not had a winning season since 1996 when they were 5-3.

[JEFFFAN]

I have a friend on this site - really, he is a friend - who claims that Amherst is the worst 5-0 team in the history of the NESCAC.   Seems a little harsh to me but I am biased.  What do others think?   Looking for objective views as their schedule has been the easiest in the conference so far.

[Conts Fan]

1. New York State generally (and Western NY specifically) is not a historically strong football recruiting hotbed. Looking at the Class of 2019, of the top 250 recruitis in the country, not one single one is from New York. The top recruit in New York is the only 4-star recruit in the entire state and he is from NYC. The next 3 are three star recruits and they all come from NYC or Long Island. Although we recognize that the CONTS are not recruiting 3 and 4 star recruits, the fact that there are basically none in Upstate NY is indicative of the quality of HS football played there, which, IOO, does not hold a candle to NJ and PA and for that matter, MA and CT.

...However, next year they will have to replace a Top 5 NESCAC QB, in Kenny Gray.

Spoken not as any kind of recruiting expert, but as someone who has lived roughly half my life in NY and half in Massachusetts, I would definitely say that NY football does not compete at the level of PA or NJ, but is certainly the equal of MA (I don't really consider the MA prep schools in this because of all the out-of-state and post-grad kids). There are plenty of quality D-III type kids playing upstate, especially around Buffalo and Rochester, as evidenced by looking at #3 Brockport's roster. That said, I doubt it is any kind of recruiting advantage with all the other D-III schools playing football upstate.

And isn't Kenny Gray a junior?

[lumbercat]

A big factor with Hamilton is the recruiting advantage they have in an area where they are the only NESCAC school around. It's a strong Football region in which they are often unopposed in terms of NESCAC competition. Much stronger football area than Maine, NH or Vermont.
Murray is familiar with the region and is recruiting well. The long bus rides are a challenge for the Buff n Blue but Coach Murray will continue to recruit like shooting fish in a barrel.

Typical NESCAC recruiting itineraries are...... CT: visit Trinity and Wes. Western Ma- hit Williams and Amherst. Maine- you can cover those 3 schools in a day.

For Western/ Northern NY kids it's the Buff n Blue.....unopposed.

Murray gets that and and Hamilton continues to improve- a great hire.

Lumber, we love ya but we want to clarify a few things:

1. New York State generally (and Western NY specifically) is not a historically strong football recruiting hotbed. Looking at the Class of 2019, of the top 250 recruitis in the country, not one single one is from New York. The top recruit in New York is the only 4-star recruit in the entire state and he is from NYC. The next 3 are three star recruits and they all come from NYC or Long Island. Although we recognize that the CONTS are not recruiting 3 and 4 star recruits, the fact that there are basically none in Upstate NY is indicative of the quality of HS football played there, which, IOO, does not hold a candle to NJ and PA and for that matter, MA and CT.
2. Hamilton may be the only NESCAC school in upstate NY, but they are not the only NESCAC school recruiting upstate NY and they are not the only top academic school recruiting in upstate NY. We know for a fact that TTUN (HCOF Raymond knows that area well from his days at St. Lawrence), Wes, Amhurst and Hartford State all hit that area hard. In addition, academically strong D3 schools like Union, RPI, U of R, and St. Lawrence as well as Cornell and Colgate are all recruiting similar kids. We know HCOF Murray has strong connections in the area from his days at Alfred, but he is hardly the only game in town.
3. We like HCOF Murray however, the comment that they continue to improve is certainly open to debate. This is Murray's 5th season as the HCOF of the Conts. This year they are 2-3 and they are 3-6, 3-5, 2-6, and 0-8 over the prior 4 seasons (10-28 overall). Hardly, IOO, worthy of "a great hire" label. For what it's worth, we forecast a 4-5 season for HAM when all is said in done this year. However, next year they will have to replace a Top 5 NESCAC QB, in Kenny Gray.
4. One other interesting HAM tidbit: The "Buff & Blue" has not had a winning season since 1996 when they were 5-3.

I get your points NESCACMAN but some clarification from here as well.

First, lets leave the National D1 recruiting rankings aside. This is D3 with Academics as the chief calling card in the NESCAC arena. It's a significantly different situation. No 4 star Blue Chippers here, we are dealing with 4 star students who can play some football.

My main comparison was between and NY northern New England, where the Maine schools and Middlebury reside- There is no comparison between Northern New England  and Central, Western NY as a recruiting area.  Hamilton is all alone out there in terms of NESCAC representation. (Advantage Hamilton). Its a better football area than you are representing.

Of course other schools recruit in the area where Hamilton and Murray reside but he's right there in there in the middle of it. Believe he sells the "NESCAC" experience hard despite some fine schools in the area. On a different scale Tufts has always done very well recruiting in the greater Boston area which is their backyard. Civetti has crafted a brilliant slogan......"Tufts!....Boston's NESCAC school". Murray doesn't have the Boston allure but he's doing a great job with what he has.

My other point is while Hamilton is located in western Siberia (Disadvantage Hamilton) Murray is familiar with that area and will continue to recruit well there. H e knows every high school coach there and he's done a great job turning his location into  a positive for Conts.

I know all about Hamiltons past struggles. Murray is making progress. He is getting better athletes and the program is moving in the right direction.

[ColbyFootball]

Hamilton's location with respect to downstate NY, and NJ, is as good if not better than most nescac schools, excepting Wes and Trinity. And it is far better than the Maine schools. I made the trips to Hamilton and Colby dozens of times, and Hamilton is a far easier ride from downstate.

[Nescacman]

1. New York State generally (and Western NY specifically) is not a historically strong football recruiting hotbed. Looking at the Class of 2019, of the top 250 recruitis in the country, not one single one is from New York. The top recruit in New York is the only 4-star recruit in the entire state and he is from NYC. The next 3 are three star recruits and they all come from NYC or Long Island. Although we recognize that the CONTS are not recruiting 3 and 4 star recruits, the fact that there are basically none in Upstate NY is indicative of the quality of HS football played there, which, IOO, does not hold a candle to NJ and PA and for that matter, MA and CT.

...However, next year they will have to replace a Top 5 NESCAC QB, in Kenny Gray.

Spoken not as any kind of recruiting expert, but as someone who has lived roughly half my life in NY and half in Massachusetts, I would definitely say that NY football does not compete at the level of PA or NJ, but is certainly the equal of MA (I don't really consider the MA prep schools in this because of all the out-of-state and post-grad kids). There are plenty of quality D-III type kids playing upstate, especially around Buffalo and Rochester, as evidenced by looking at #3 Brockport's roster. That said, I doubt it is any kind of recruiting advantage with all the other D-III schools playing football upstate.

And isn't Kenny Gray a junior?

Correct....we stand corrected on Gray.

Some additional info...HAM has 29 kids from NY on their roster. Of those 29, 17 are from the NY Metro area including a number from Monsignor Farrelll on the Rock (aka Staten Island), who actually play real football against real teams...the other 12 are primarily from upstate NY....no point, just information....draw you're own conclusions.

[Conts Fan]

Some additional info...HAM has 29 kids from NY on their roster. Of those 29, 17 are from the NY Metro area including a number from Monsignor Farrelll on the Rock (aka State Island), who actually play real football against real teams...the other 12 are primarily from upstate NY....no point, just information....draw you're own conclusions.

One conclusion might be that greater NYC is a more populous area than upstate.

[Nescacman]

I have a friend on this site - really, he is a friend - who claims that Amherst is the worst 5-0 team in the history of the NESCAC.   Seems a little harsh to me but I am biased.  What do others think?   Looking for objective views as their schedule has been the easiest in the conference so far.

We don't know if they are the worst team but as noted, they have only played 1 team with a winning record and have not exactly been lighting it up offensively. We think their defense is very good, they can run the ball (they lead the NESCAC in rushing) and they seem to do just enough to win. We know they are well coached. For a 5-0 team, it is unusual to see a minus 2 turnover ratio. That might work against the C-B-B's, but won't fly against the upper echelon teams. Looking at common opponents with Wes whom they play Saturday, Amhurst struggled against Bates and Mid both of whom Wes crushed, they beat Ham who beat Wes, and they both beat Colby (Wes had a brain fart the last 1:30 of the game, otherwise it was not close). Amhurst did not beat up on Bowdoin whom others have had their way with. Wes has not played Bowdoin yet. We will quickly see what kind of team Amhurst really is. We don't think think they are a 9-0 kind of team. They are good, however. Think 7-2...

[Nescacman]

Some additional info...HAM has 29 kids from NY on their roster. Of those 29, 17 are from the NY Metro area including a number from Monsignor Farrelll on the Rock (aka State Island), who actually play real football against real teams...the other 12 are primarily from upstate NY....no point, just information....draw you're own conclusions.

One conclusion might be that greater NYC is a more populous area than upstate.

Or another conclussionmight be that Murray doesn't really recruit as much in Upstate NY as we all think...

[Conts Fan]

Not to turn this into a silly argument, but I count three kids from Staten Island, six more from Westchester/Long Island, and the rest of the NY kids are from various points north and west of there.

[DC 53]

   First and foremost, if you spend five minutes with Dave Murray you realize that he's not a good hire, but an excellent hire for Hamilton. Unless you lived through it as Hamgrand and I did, you have no idea of the depth of the catastrophe that was created by the two years of Cohen's reign of error in Clinton. Murray treated the players with great dignity, as he helped them to love football again. Not having control of one's schedule is one of the biggest roadblocks to turning around a program in NESCAC. From my experience as a coach, I can state with certainty, that football is the toughest sport to turn around quickly. Turning around a program that has been ravaged by an incompetent autocrat is even more arduous. While admissions and fin. aid have been fair to Murray and staff, they have not received the love that has been alleged to have occurred at other league schools. That's not a criticism of the peer schools; I've said before, when you step between the lines in this league you're on your own. Your currency is your effort, your commitment, and your talent. The level playing field is the same size in every venue.
  New York has the 4th largest population in the country. The Hamilton staff has it covered. The coach who recruits the NYC and LI area did the same at Alfred. In fact, he recruited my son when he was at Alfred. When he saw him at Hamilton, he remarked that my boy had truly found the right school for himself.  Nassau and Suffolk Counties alone have 3 million people and more than 100 public and private schools who play football. It's not Texas or Pennsylvania, but it never pretended to be. It's solid, competitive ball, and it sends its share of players to great programs, and some have made it to the NFL. The top TE prospect in the country played for the HS in the next town (where my wife  teaches) and he's seeing field time as a true freshman at The Ohio State University. Hamilton will find its share of "diamonds in the rough" here and in other parts of the Empire State. 28% of Hamilton's students hail from New England states, so they'll continue to do well there as well as in other parts of the lower 48. The real comfort zone according to the Hamilton staff is within the 4-5 driving window of College Hill. That includes much of NE, Pennsylvania, NJ and even parts of Ohio.
   Kenny Gray will indeed be back next year, as will ALL NESCAC LB Tyler Hudson. Both were not recruited by anyone else in NESCAC, and both were found because of close long-standing relationships between Hamilton staffers and HS coaches. Trust and honesty is huge in recruiting. I've spent most of my professional career advising student-athletes about college choices. It's an inexact science at best, and fakers and charlatans eventually get weeded out. Ultimately, it's about getting the best educational experience, and benefiting from playing a sport that most don't get to enjoy beyond HS.
    As NESCAC Football becomes more universally competitive, the crack (pun intended) research teams will also need to "up" their respective games in order to feed the prognosticating juggernauts that we've all come to know and love!

[lumbercat]

   
   Kenny Gray will indeed be back next year, as will ALL NESCAC LB Tyler Hudson. Both were not recruited by anyone else in NESCAC, and both were found because of close long-standing relationships between Hamilton staffers and HS coaches.

DC53's quote about Kenny Gray and Tyler Hudson speaks directly to my point that Murray has some recruiting advantages based on Hamilton location.
If either of those kids were from Eastern Ma they would most likely have been recruited heavily by most, if not all, of the NESCAC and would very likely not have ended up in Clinton NY. Hamilton had no NESCAC recruiting competition for them- not a bad deal.

[amh63]

DC 53....and others here, the discussion on how student-athletes "find" their way to Nescac schools is great and fills the void on this board...for me...between Saturdays.  I will add a few comments here wrt "recruiting".  The key element revolves around Personal trust/contact, IMO.  As I have posted before, I traveled to the Pittsfield Ma. area on business quite often.  Many of the people I grew to know had kids attending the two primary HSs in the area.  A number of the kids went to both Williams and Amherst.  Several played football and baseball for Amherst.  Those that attended/played at Amherst helped "recruit" other student-athletes to Amherst.  One baseball player's parents and I became friends.  I would see them at basketball games even.  They had another son that attended Hamilton.  Remember that son and the parents would offer advice to other parents looking at Nescac type schools. 

[AmDad]

I have a friend on this site - really, he is a friend - who claims that Amherst is the worst 5-0 team in the history of the NESCAC.   Seems a little harsh to me but I am biased.  What do others think?   Looking for objective views as their schedule has been the easiest in the conference so far.

My perspective only goes back 3 years but I too am interested to see how Amherst does against the stronger teams in the league.  The D is stout as usual and the running game is strong even without Hickey.  My concern is can they throw it when they need to against a good defense? 

In my opinion, the issue is the offensive playcalling... it is predictable and unimaginative.  We often run the speed option to the perimeter but rarely a read option between the tackles.  I don't recall any jet sweeps, just the sweep where #11 goes behind the deepest running back. And what about RPOs, flood routes or other modern route combos? These are all standard features of any decent high school offense, unfortunately Amherst is still feeling the loss of former coaches Fucillo and McKillop (both former NESCAC QBs).

[Jonny Utah]

You guys are underestimating the power of recruiting in the NESCAC.  These are national liberal arts schools that can bring in top players from all over the country.  Section 4 quarterbacks (like Hamilton's) are going to be well known to any NESCAC football coach.  Hamilton is still a longer drive from Orange County, NY than it is to Williams, Amherst, Wes and Trinity.   Top HS QBs (even d3 ones) are going to attend camps that will be staffed by pretty much every NESCAC staff.

Hamilton is a well known school in every suburban Boston High School and I would still say the majority of these players (I coach them) usually look at the school first, and football program 2nd.  Oddly enough, I'm guessing the HS I coach at has had the most successful players at the CBB schools, and maybe that is the issue.  I'm thinking the CBB schools have the disadvantage in getting NY , PA, NJ players and that is what keeps them down.  So it isn't Hamilton's advantage, but the CBBs disadvantage.