FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Nescacman]

Not to turn this into a silly argument, but I count three kids from Staten Island, six more from Westchester/Long Island, and the rest of the NY kids are from various points north and west of there.

We stand corrected on the count...we were counting kids from suburban NJ as well. In any event, directionally, our point still holds.

[Nescacman]

   First and foremost, if you spend five minutes with Dave Murray you realize that he's not a good hire, but an excellent hire for Hamilton. Unless you lived through it as Hamgrand and I did, you have no idea of the depth of the catastrophe that was created by the two years of Cohen's reign of error in Clinton. Murray treated the players with great dignity, as he helped them to love football again. Not having control of one's schedule is one of the biggest roadblocks to turning around a program in NESCAC. From my experience as a coach, I can state with certainty, that football is the toughest sport to turn around quickly. Turning around a program that has been ravaged by an incompetent autocrat is even more arduous. While admissions and fin. aid have been fair to Murray and staff, they have not received the love that has been alleged to have occurred at other league schools. That's not a criticism of the peer schools; I've said before, when you step between the lines in this league you're on your own. Your currency is your effort, your commitment, and your talent. The level playing field is the same size in every venue.
  New York has the 4th largest population in the country. The Hamilton staff has it covered. The coach who recruits the NYC and LI area did the same at Alfred. In fact, he recruited my son when he was at Alfred. When he saw him at Hamilton, he remarked that my boy had truly found the right school for himself.  Nassau and Suffolk Counties alone have 3 million people and more than 100 public and private schools who play football. It's not Texas or Pennsylvania, but it never pretended to be. It's solid, competitive ball, and it sends its share of players to great programs, and some have made it to the NFL. The top TE prospect in the country played for the HS in the next town (where my wife  teaches) and he's seeing field time as a true freshman at The Ohio State University. Hamilton will find its share of "diamonds in the rough" here and in other parts of the Empire State. 28% of Hamilton's students hail from New England states, so they'll continue to do well there as well as in other parts of the lower 48. The real comfort zone according to the Hamilton staff is within the 4-5 driving window of College Hill. That includes much of NE, Pennsylvania, NJ and even parts of Ohio.
   Kenny Gray will indeed be back next year, as will ALL NESCAC LB Tyler Hudson. Both were not recruited by anyone else in NESCAC, and both were found because of close long-standing relationships between Hamilton staffers and HS coaches. Trust and honesty is huge in recruiting. I've spent most of my professional career advising student-athletes about college choices. It's an inexact science at best, and fakers and charlatans eventually get weeded out. Ultimately, it's about getting the best educational experience, and benefiting from playing a sport that most don't get to enjoy beyond HS.
    As NESCAC Football becomes more universally competitive, the crack (pun intended) research teams will also need to "up" their respective games in order to feed the prognosticating juggernauts that we've all come to know and love!

1). Despite the jabs, we agree with some of your points. One point that we don't agree with is that football is the hardest sport to turnaround. HCOF Whalen and HCOF Raymond turned around Wes and TTUN in 2-3 years. In our mind, that's an acceptable time frame. What is taking others so long? Is it taking them too long? Why haven't they been successful in turning their programs around? What is an acceptable time table for a new coach to turn things around? How long should it take HCOF Hall and Cosgrove to turn around UBates and Colby, respectively?

2). Please keep in mind that we are not criticizing Murray as person or a coach. We're sure he is a great guy and based on his pre-Hamilton success, he's a decent coach. We are only challenging the notion that he has been successful thus far at Hamilton. We think the jury is still out. IOO, 5-4 is a step in the right direction, 4-5 is a lateral move, and 3-6 is going backward.

3). NY State HS football is an interesting topic.. NYS is indeed a very populated state with lots of very talented HS student athletes.. We think there are many reasons that NYS football in not on the same level with Tex, Fla, Pa, NJ, et al. Perhaps it is because a greater % of the population live in urban areas where it is harder to find space to play football. Maybe it is because basketball, lacrosse and other sports are so strong in NYS and student athletes are focused on those sports as opposed to football. Curious to hear others take on this.

4). You comment that Hudson will be back next year. Do you know that to be 100% the case? If he does come back, will he be the same player that he was before the injury? Does one player make that much of a difference?  He was a very good player before his (serious) injury that cost him the 2018 season. We wish him luck and hope to see him return at 100% in 2019. It's a shame he doesn't attend Tufts or Wesleyan...if he did he could be eligible to play a 5th year as a grad student. Maybe he'll attend grad school in Medford or Middletown?

[Nescacman]

You guys are underestimating the power of recruiting in the NESCAC.  These are national liberal arts schools that can bring in top players from all over the country.  Section 4 quarterbacks (like Hamilton's) are going to be well known to any NESCAC football coach. 

I'm thinking the CBB schools have the disadvantage in getting NY , PA, NJ players and that is what keeps them down.  So it isn't Hamilton's advantage, but the CBBs disadvantage.

We couldn't agree more...

[ColbyFootball]

   First and foremost, if you spend five minutes with Dave Murray you realize that he's not a good hire, but an excellent hire for Hamilton. Unless you lived through it as Hamgrand and I did, you have no idea of the depth of the catastrophe that was created by the two years of Cohen's reign of error in Clinton.

I lived through the Cohen era at Hamilton as well, and you are 100% correct. It was a disaster, and it's amazing Murray has been able to turn things around as much as he has. Those who did not experience the Cohen years can't appreciate the job Murray's done.

[lumbercat]

ColbyFootball-
No question about it. Of all the new coaches entering the NESCAC in the last few years the Hamilton situation was the most difficult challenge.

[Hamiltonian]

So here's my proposed answer as to why it's harder to turn things around in a place like Hamilton than at places like Williams and Wesleyan:  Recruiting!  (and in Wesleyan's case, you can't tell me that the size of the school doesn't help, as well.)  One thing I can see from watching for several years is that while Hamilton may be able to match other teams talent position to talent position, it absolutely cannot match them consistently across the field in terms of size.  the O-lines of the successful teams alone average 20-30 lbs more per position.  but so do the backs and ends.  the winning teams are just bigger with the same speed.  it's a little like what happens when you look at the difference between the best D3 team and the worst Ivy team -- the Ivy team is just bigger.  that is a gap that's very hard to overcome in football.  or so it seems to me, anyway.  now someone can explain to me why this is wrong, too.

[Pat Coleman]

It's also a lot easier to turn around a program that has been good, or at least decent, recently. It was noted here earlier how long it's been since Hamilton last had a winning season, whereas the gap was much shorter for Wesleyan and Williams.

[Jonny Utah]

So here's my proposed answer as to why it's harder to turn things around in a place like Hamilton than at places like Williams and Wesleyan:  Recruiting!  (and in Wesleyan's case, you can't tell me that the size of the school doesn't help, as well.)  One thing I can see from watching for several years is that while Hamilton may be able to match other teams talent position to talent position, it absolutely cannot match them consistently across the field in terms of size.  the O-lines of the successful teams alone average 20-30 lbs more per position.  but so do the backs and ends.  the winning teams are just bigger with the same speed.  it's a little like what happens when you look at the difference between the best D3 team and the worst Ivy team -- the Ivy team is just bigger.  that is a gap that's very hard to overcome in football.  or so it seems to me, anyway.  now someone can explain to me why this is wrong, too.

I have watched 1-3 Tufts game every year for the past 10 years.  I can never eyeball what teams are going to be better based on "size" on the field.  Some of the better players have been smaller defensive ones, or pass rushers that might not appear to have great size.  Bates this year had a pretty big oline.  But they let up a lot of sacks and can't move anyone off the ball.  The biggest difference I've always noticed is QBs, fast defenses, and then maybe RBs or WRs.  RBs depend on some blocking, and WRs obviously depend on QBs.   

[polbear73]

Numbers of players and depth have to be a consideration too.  Even the lower tier teams have some premiere talent, just not enough of it.  Even Bowdoin has stayed with teams for a quarter or a half, but the numbers eventually catch up with them. 

[Hamiltonian]

guess it must just be coincidence that D1 teams are bigger than D3 teams.  and that the top tier D1 teams are bigger than the bottom tier.  I'm sure size really doesn't matter ... in football.

[Pat Coleman]

guess it must just be coincidence that D1 teams are bigger than D3 teams.  and that the top tier D1 teams are bigger than the bottom tier.  I'm sure size really doesn't matter ... in football.

It just isn't the be-all and end-all. Especially at D-III, sometimes the guys with size are in D-III for a reason. Sometimes the smaller guys are faster, more talented ... and sometimes they're better coached. Case study: 2003 Stagg Bowl.

[nescac1]

Williams posted its pre-game lineup, and as always it is likely to bear little relationship to who actually plays vs. Tufts.  Sometimes it takes several weeks for those to reflect injury-related lineup changes, and on other occasions guys are cryptically listed as starters who are really bench players.  By my count at least four listed starters (Morrison, Barber, Rothmann, and Dozier) either missed last week's game entirely or missed the bulk of it after leaving with an injury.  Justin Nelson is also either hurt or just not playing very much, as well.  While I'd love to think all those dudes will be back healthy vs. Tufts, that seems highly doubtful.  Some young players will need to step up, big time, for the Ephs to pull what I'd consider an upset on the road vs. a very good Tufts team, especially in light of how many key guys are banged up right now. 

[Jonny Utah]

guess it must just be coincidence that D1 teams are bigger than D3 teams.  and that the top tier D1 teams are bigger than the bottom tier.  I'm sure size really doesn't matter ... in football.

They are also faster, jump higher, have bigger hands, can turn their hips quicker, are stronger, have players who can throw more accurately, WRs who are taller, etc

There are many differences in d1 vs d3

[Bombers798891]

guess it must just be coincidence that D1 teams are bigger than D3 teams.  and that the top tier D1 teams are bigger than the bottom tier.  I'm sure size really doesn't matter ... in football.

It can help to think of these differences not in terms of division vs division, or even conference vs conference. Look at any one team's roster, and you're almost assuredly going to find some players starting ahead of others who are bigger than them. Ithaca's #2 WR is listed at 5-9, 160. There are 17 WRs on the roster who are bigger than he is

Obviously, if everything else is equal, I'd rather have the guy who is three inches taller or 25 pounds heavier. But, as Pat and Utah have pointed out, everything else is rarely equal

[Conts Fan]

So here's my proposed answer as to why it's harder to turn things around in a place like Hamilton than at places like Williams and Wesleyan:  Recruiting!  (and in Wesleyan's case, you can't tell me that the size of the school doesn't help, as well.)  One thing I can see from watching for several years is that while Hamilton may be able to match other teams talent position to talent position, it absolutely cannot match them consistently across the field in terms of size.  the O-lines of the successful teams alone average 20-30 lbs more per position.  but so do the backs and ends.  the winning teams are just bigger with the same speed.  it's a little like what happens when you look at the difference between the best D3 team and the worst Ivy team -- the Ivy team is just bigger.  that is a gap that's very hard to overcome in football.  or so it seems to me, anyway.  now someone can explain to me why this is wrong, too.

Over the last several years, many of Hamilton's teams have become much more competitive across the board rising at least to the upper half of the league, and in some cases toward the top. When they first joined the league on a full-time basis, they really struggled in most sports, but if you look now, basketball, hockey, soccer, and field hockey, off the top of my head, are much better. With luck, football continues that trend. I don't know exactly what has prompted the overall improvement on the field, but as an alum it is certainly welcome.