FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

lumbercat · January 17, 2020, 02:36:22 PM

Westerfield still showing on their website as DC so this may be an unfounded rumor.

However, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a NESCAC football program leave a coach on their website and department directories for weeks after the guy is long gone. Sloppy to say the least at institutions that pride themselves on high standards.
I'm sure there are often timelines and contractural issues involved but I'm convinced from past precedent these oversights could be intentional especially when changes like this often take place at a time when many recruits are making final decisions.

FredWilliamson · January 18, 2020, 12:37:16 PM

I have it from a very good source that Hammer got rid of him. Just wanted to see if anyone else could confirm.

Nescacman · January 20, 2020, 03:56:28 PM

Quote from: lumbercat on January 17, 2020, 02:36:22 PM
Westerfield still showing on their website as DC so this may be an unfounded rumor.

However, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a NESCAC football program leave a coach on their website and department directories for weeks after the guy is long gone. Sloppy to say the least at institutions that pride themselves on high standards.
I'm sure there are often timelines and contractural issues involved but I'm convinced from past precedent these oversights could be intentional especially when changes like this often take place at a time when many recruits are making final decisions.

I would think in Bowdoin's case, getting rid of the DC would be a plus and they would want the name off the site ASAP as soon as a change is made...

Just an observation....recruiting should have nothing to do with this...if the Polars (or any other team in the league) didn't have their recruiting pretty much wrapped up 30-45 days ago, there are bigger problems here than a sloppy SID...just sayin'...

FredWilliamson · January 20, 2020, 05:38:54 PM

Westerfield was the DL Coach. Coach Hammer served as his own DC and unfortunately the defense was the worst statistically that it has been in years. Westerfield is probably happy not to be in Hammer's system. Additionally recruits attend Bowdoin because of the education, not the football.

lumbercat · January 20, 2020, 08:19:16 PM

Disagree with last 2 posts.

NESCACMAN-
Recruiting potentially may well have a lot to do with an omission like this. Recruiting isn't done yet. Many class of 24 recruits still hang in the balance. ED 2 and regular admissions still very much up in the air. Still many important final decisions to be made.

Fred "the Hammer" Williamson-
Bowdoin recruits are being recruited by other great academic institutions - Amherst, Williams etc. Of course it's about academics but don't think Football is not a big part of the decision nor is Bowdoin the only option.

FredWilliamson · January 20, 2020, 09:42:47 PM

Clearly any recruit looking at NESCAC institutions is focused on academics. However, the sad truth is that given the opportunity to attend Bowdoin vs Amherst, Williams, Middlebury football recruits choose Amherst, Williams or Middlebury. Check out the recruiting classes for the last ten years and see given legitimate offers by those four schools and see how many recruits choose Bowdoin. Excellent school, but it terms of football only wins recruiting battles when there is no equal academic competition.

FredWilliamson · January 20, 2020, 09:44:05 PM

BTW, glad to see you pick up on the Fred Williamson connect.

lumbercat · January 20, 2020, 10:34:23 PM

Quote from: FredWilliamson on January 20, 2020, 09:42:47 PM
Clearly any recruit looking at NESCAC institutions is focused on academics. However, the sad truth is that given the opportunity to attend Bowdoin vs Amherst, Williams, Middlebury football recruits choose Amherst, Williams or Middlebury. Check out the recruiting classes for the last ten years and see given legitimate offers by those four schools and see how many recruits choose Bowdoin. Excellent school, but it terms of football only wins recruiting battles when there is no equal academic competition.

Not going to say that if all is equal a kid will not choose Williams or Amherst over Bowdoin but it has happened. Football is side by side along with academics in the decision process but your'e overlooking a huge variable- the "need based" financial aid package. That can sway a recruit to any of the 4 schools to which you refer or to another NESCAC school for that matter. It's not like choosing Bowdoin over Middlebury is a bad decision. After all your original premise was that it is not about football.

And by the way if you've got ten years of data on NESCAC recruits that shows their offers and ultimate college decision it would be great to see.

FredWilliamson · January 20, 2020, 11:31:50 PM

The beauty of a kid being recruited by NESCAC schools is that there are no bad decisions. I am just looking at the history of football in the league and see that while Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin and Middlebury are generally regarded as the "best" academic schools, only Bowdoin has a consistent history of under performing in the sport of football. It seems like over the past decade or so there has been a turnstile of coaches in Brunswick who prior to Bowdoin were deemed to be pretty damn good before their arrival and magically pretty damn good upon their departure. Hopefully, BJ is different, but based on the top recruits choosing the other three it will be tough sledding.

FredWilliamson · January 21, 2020, 12:35:51 AM

I'm not 100% sure, but based on the endowments of the four schools in question aren't they all able to meet the full need of their students applying for financial aid. Thus the cost of attendance should be equal at all four and make cost a non factor.

firstdown · January 21, 2020, 08:51:52 AM

Quote from: FredWilliamson on January 20, 2020, 05:38:54 PM
Westerfield was the DL Coach. Coach Hammer served as his own DC and unfortunately the defense was the worst statistically that it has been in years. Westerfield is probably happy not to be in Hammer's system. Additionally recruits attend Bowdoin because of the education, not the football.

At Wabash, Coach Hammer's system had the defense in the top 5 in a number of statistical categories regularly and had the best stats in all of college football in a couple of categories one year. At Allegheny, by his third year, their defense was in the top 10 of several of the defense stats. Ask the current D3 National Champion - North Central how they liked Coach Hammer's defense in 2011.
The NESCAC rules make a quick turn around difficult with limits on recruiting and no spring practice unlike Allegheny where Coach could bring in 70 recruits a year and had spring practice to work on skills and teaching his system. Bowdoin is a great school and Coach Hammer is a top notch recruiter. As the right players are added and become comfortable with the defensive system, you will see quite a difference.

lumbercat · January 21, 2020, 09:29:08 AM

Quote from: FredWilliamson on January 21, 2020, 12:35:51 AM
I'm not 100% sure, but based on the endowments of the four schools in question aren't they all able to meet the full need of their students applying for financial aid. Thus the cost of attendance should be equal at all four and make cost a non factor.

As lofty as the endowments may be there are always variances and limitations when it comes to financial packages. Any one of those schools may go all out in terms of aid for a recruit they deem desirable for their school....and football program. Also, "need" is a subjective term which can lead to significant differences from school to school.

I'd just say, respectfully Fred, I think you are simplifying what can be kind of a complex process with a lot of moving parts. At the end of the day I agree that all things being totally equal a kid chooses Amherst and Williams in most cases if they have that option.
The preferred NESCAC recruits often have "offers" from 5 or 6 or more NESCAC schools. Thats where it can make for a complicated decision given differences in aid package.

If a recruit is from a wealthy family and doesn't need financial help it's probably your top tier schools that prevail.

Hawk196 · January 21, 2020, 09:51:37 AM

Quote from: lumbercat on January 21, 2020, 09:29:08 AM
Quote from: FredWilliamson on January 21, 2020, 12:35:51 AM
I'm not 100% sure, but based on the endowments of the four schools in question aren't they all able to meet the full need of their students applying for financial aid. Thus the cost of attendance should be equal at all four and make cost a non factor.

At the end of the day I agree that all things being totally equal a kid chooses Amherst and Williams in most cases if they have that option.

not sure how it would be equal, but my Son chose Tufts because it was not a sub-2000 student population and it wasn't in the middle of God's country

lumbercat · January 21, 2020, 11:18:19 AM

Great point- Tufts has great a recruiting line billing themselves as "Boston's NESCAC school" which makes Medford a great location for many.....and by the way superior academics.

PBPOP20 · January 21, 2020, 12:34:47 PM

Couple follow on points:

* Westerfield is gone, per the boys on campus.
* Hammer would tell you the type of athletes in place in Brunswick to run his defense is completely wrong. MANY big body DL recruited by Wells got moved to OL bc Hammer needs basically DE's across the front to be effective. He simply did not care, phase 1 is indoctrination to his philosophy, talent be damned, and winning now was not a consideration.
* I can only speak to my son, but he chose Bowdoin over Amherst, Williams, Tufts and Weslyan. Wells did a good job selling him on being part of a turn around. So, lots of factors go into it, not a simple as saying a winning tradition wins out.