FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Hawk196]

It definitely plays in. When my son was at the Columbia camp, the Carnegie Mellon coach was going to each kid and asking SAT scores, you had to be near perfect to be considered. Talk about slim pickings.....Pittsburgh was a bit of a distance, so it didn't matter to us

[FredWilliamson]

I agree with lumbercat. Wabash and Allegheny have acceptance rates over 60% as compared to Bowdoin at roughly 9%. The ability to search out recruits is much easier when over 50% will be admitted versus less than 10%. Additionally once you enter that level of academic excellence your pool is extremely low even if you could contact every high school in America. Plus every other NESCAC and IVY knows the best players with those academic credentials. At Wabash and Allegheny you can easily expand your recruiting areas and find kids from obscure areas that your competition might not know about and get them admitted. Unfortunately this will not happen at Bowdoin. Hammer has to be able sell the reasons why to attend Bowdoin over schools like Amherst, Williams, Middlebury and the rest of the NESCAC with the understanding that they will have great options. Additionally as I mentioned earlier, both Wabash and Allegheny have been traditionally winning programs. Definitely a big decision making point to legitimate football players.

[Jonny Utah]

I agree with lumbercat. Wabash and Allegheny have acceptance rates over 60% as compared to Bowdoin at roughly 9%. The ability to search out recruits is much easier when over 50% will be admitted versus less than 10%. Additionally once you enter that level of academic excellence your pool is extremely low even if you could contact every high school in America. Plus every other NESCAC and IVY knows the best players with those academic credentials. At Wabash and Allegheny you can easily expand your recruiting areas and find kids from obscure areas that your competition might not know about and get them admitted. Unfortunately this will not happen at Bowdoin. Hammer has to be able sell the reasons why to attend Bowdoin over schools like Amherst, Williams, Middlebury and the rest of the NESCAC with the understanding that they will have great options. Additionally as I mentioned earlier, both Wabash and Allegheny have been traditionally winning programs. Definitely a big decision making point to legitimate football players.

Yea but Bowdoin also isn't competing with Mt. Union, Washington and Jefferson or Wittenberg for recruits, they are competing with Williams, Colby and Bates.  I could give you a dozen anecdotes of kids going to Bowdoin for football who went there because Colby or Middlebury didn't give them enough money, and I can give you other stories about Bowdoin and Williams coaches telling kids to take the SAT's again if they want to get into those schools when the kid has already gotten into Bates or Trinity.  We (or I don't anyway) know anything about how much money Allegheny gives out that can cover some of the 63K a year compared to Wittenberg or Wabash.  I do know that many Bowdoin students get a lot of financial aid, with many students only paying 20k or so a year for your "average" family in the Boston area (making 150K a year or so as a family)

Let's face it, Bowdoin needed a different approach to recruiting than what Wells was probably giving them.  The ISL and NEPSAC is always going to be the lifeblood of NESCAC recruiting, but a place like MIT or Bowdoin might need to do more, and a guy like Hammer is someone who has more experience nationally than Wells may have, or at least presented some sort of plan when he got the job.

I think the bottom line is that if MIT can do it, Bowdoin can do it.  I mean Dean and Curry have almost 90% acceptance rates, but we don't all say they have huge advantages because of that right?

[lumbercat]

I think the bottom line is that if MIT can do it, Bowdoin can do it.  I mean Dean and Curry have almost 90% acceptance rates, but we don't all say they have huge advantages because of that right?

Jonny-
I always respect your opinions but how can it not be an advantage for the recruiter with the higher acceptance rate? Skip Bandini is certainly much better off with a 90% acceptance rate than he would be if the Curry acceptance rate was much lower. I think it is a big advantage.

[Jonny Utah]

I think the bottom line is that if MIT can do it, Bowdoin can do it.  I mean Dean and Curry have almost 90% acceptance rates, but we don't all say they have huge advantages because of that right?

Jonny-
I always respect your opinions but how can it not be an advantage for the recruiter with the higher acceptance rate? Skip Bandini is certainly much better off with a 90% acceptance rate than he would be if the Curry acceptance rate was much lower. I think it is a big advantage.

It is an advantage within the league of course, but it isn't the reason Allegheny is an "easier" place to recruit than Bowdoin because they schools don't play each other.  Don't get me wrong, there is a larger conversation here that involves why Harvard doesn't play Syracuse anymore, and that concept of American football and College admissions trickles down to places like Bowdoin because of it.

Unless I missed the original point?  I guess I'm saying that admissions rates are only a small part of recruiting.  If admission rates were so "important", then the best teams should all be schools with high admissions rates correct?  And take the tipping out of it, the top schools in the country at the d3 level all have the top athletic programs. 

[Ice Bear]

I think the bottom line is that if MIT can do it, Bowdoin can do it.  I mean Dean and Curry have almost 90% acceptance rates, but we don't all say they have huge advantages because of that right?

Jonny-
I always respect your opinions but how can it not be an advantage for the recruiter with the higher acceptance rate? Skip Bandini is certainly much better off with a 90% acceptance rate than he would be if the Curry acceptance rate was much lower. I think it is a big advantage.

It is an advantage within the league of course, but it isn't the reason Allegheny is an "easier" place to recruit than Bowdoin because they schools don't play each other.  Don't get me wrong, there is a larger conversation here that involves why Harvard doesn't play Syracuse anymore, and that concept of American football and College admissions trickles down to places like Bowdoin because of it.

Unless I missed the original point?  I guess I'm saying that admissions rates are only a small part of recruiting.  If admission rates were so "important", then the best teams should all be schools with high admissions rates correct? And take the tipping out of it, the top schools in the country at the d3 level all have the top athletic programs.

Ice Bear says...yup.

[lumbercat]

I agree there are many other factors but to think Trinity with their higher acceptance rate and broader range for their football TIPS does not have a recruiting advantage Bowdoin is not accurate.

I don't care what league or venue it is, when there is a tough, rigid admissions department it makes for tough sledding..... anyplace. Thats been my premise along with the fact that Hammer is encountering a difference in conditions. I think Bowdoin admissions is BJ's biggest challenge.

I know of some of the recruiting frustrations that some of the Bates coaches have experienced under the new coaching regime. Some coaches from less selective schools have had to deal with a number of frustrations with rejected prospects. When you come from an environment where you get most/all of your recruits in it's a new ballgame. Thankfully for the Bates situation HC Hall is well acclimated to recruiting in a highly selective environment thanks to his experience at Penn but it's been a big adjustment for the guys coming in from less selective schools.

I see your point Jonny and it's well taken but I guess we'll disagree a bit on this one.

[unionpalooza]

When you add the context, admissions rate don't matter a lot.  Because a kid who can accepted at 10% acceptance rate school is never go to attend the 60% rate school.  If you assume that intelligence and football talent are both distributed randomly, the acceptance curve and talent curve should be about the same.  Sure, it's 6 times harder to get into Bowdoin than Allegheny.  But Allegheny has 6 times more schools competing for the more academically average recruit, than does Bowdoin for any kid they'd target who could actually get in. 

Now, where this breaks down is where high academic schools let in kids who could never get in normally in a million years.  That's a huge relative advantage, and why the best academic D3 schools dominate most D3 sports.  But it doesn't work in football, where letting standards down for so many kids would actually weigh down their overall numbers.  (12 basketball players are statistically insignificant; 100 football players are not.)

I think the bottom line is that if MIT can do it, Bowdoin can do it.  I mean Dean and Curry have almost 90% acceptance rates, but we don't all say they have huge advantages because of that right?

Jonny-
I always respect your opinions but how can it not be an advantage for the recruiter with the higher acceptance rate? Skip Bandini is certainly much better off with a 90% acceptance rate than he would be if the Curry acceptance rate was much lower. I think it is a big advantage.

[lumbercat]

When you add the context, admissions rate don't matter a lot.  Because a kid who can accepted at 10% acceptance rate school is never go to attend the 60% rate school.  If you assume that intelligence and football talent are both distributed randomly, the acceptance curve and talent curve should be about the same.  Sure, it's 6 times harder to get into Bowdoin than Allegheny.  But Allegheny has 6 times more schools competing for the more academically average recruit, than does Bowdoin for any kid they'd target who could actually get in. 

Now, where this breaks down is where high academic schools let in kids who could never get in normally in a million years.  That's a huge relative advantage, and why the best academic D3 schools dominate most D3 sports.  But it doesn't work in football, where letting standards down for so many kids would actually weigh down their overall numbers.  (12 basketball players are statistically insignificant; 100 football players are not.)




Unionpalooza-
Welcome aboard. Would you mind elaborating a bit on your points here. I just don't follow.

[Jonny Utah]

I agree there are many other factors but to think Trinity with their higher acceptance rate and broader range for their football TIPS does not have a recruiting advantage Bowdoin is not accurate.

I don't care what league or venue it is, when there is a tough, rigid admissions department it makes for tough sledding..... anyplace. Thats been my premise along with the fact that Hammer is encountering a difference in conditions. I think Bowdoin admissions is BJ's biggest challenge.

I know of some of the recruiting frustrations that some of the Bates coaches have experienced under the new coaching regime. Some coaches from less selective schools have had to deal with a number of frustrations with rejected prospects. When you come from an environment where you get most/all of your recruits in it's a new ballgame. Thankfully for the Bates situation HC Hall is well acclimated to recruiting in a highly selective environment thanks to his experience at Penn but it's been a big adjustment for the guys coming in from less selective schools.

I see your point Jonny and it's well taken but I guess we'll disagree a bit on this one.

Yea I'm not saying recruiting isn't difficult at a place like Bowdoin, I'm just saying you have to put it into perspective as to what the ultimate goal is.  Bowdoin has a difficult time recruiting because of other NESCAC schools (if tips are not balanced), not because of Allegheny College.  As talked on here before, the IVY league has a league wide admissions/financial aid sharing program where every team is pretty even.  The NESCAC doesn't have that and it hurts Bowdoin athletics.

Another small point is that Bowdoin can recruit the country, Curry and Allegheny can't.  And it really brings me to my point above, if MIT can do it, Bowdoin can. 

EDIT:  To your point though It is clear that some schools seem to have a problem winning and having tough admissions standards is a part of it.  Look at Allegheny's conference where Kenyon and Oberlin (both around 25% acceptance rates) have been doormats for a long time.  Then again Hiram has a 54% acceptance rate and they are right at the bottom with Kenyon and Oberlin.  I think establishing a "football culture" is what a place like Bowdoin is having problems with.  Amherst and Williams do not seem to have the problems Bowdoin does with similar admissions rates, so maybe they don't mean anything at all within the nescac (where tips are not even within the schools)

[lumbercat]

  I think establishing a "football culture" is what a place like Bowdoin is having problems with.  Amherst and Williams do not seem to have the problems Bowdoin does with similar admissions rates, so maybe they don't mean anything at all within the nescac (where tips are not even within the schools)

You can't establish a football culture without cooperation from administration and especially admissions. That's my point here about Bowdoin, their admissions dept has been very tough, they can't get guys in.

Also, any comparison between Bowdoin and Williams/Amherst is apples vs oranges, no matter how high Bowdoin rises in the academic rankings. Very different situation at the 2 elites compared with all other NESCAC schools. It's been that way for a long time and that isn't changing.

[Jonny Utah]

  I think establishing a "football culture" is what a place like Bowdoin is having problems with.  Amherst and Williams do not seem to have the problems Bowdoin does with similar admissions rates, so maybe they don't mean anything at all within the nescac (where tips are not even within the schools)

You can't establish a football culture without cooperation from administration and especially admissions. That's my point here about Bowdoin, their admissions dept has been very tough, they can't get guys in.

Also, any comparison between Bowdoin and Williams/Amherst is apples vs oranges, no matter how high Bowdoin rises in the academic rankings. Very different situation at the 2 elites compared with all other NESCAC schools. It's been that way for a long time and that isn't changing.

I thought the point was about admission rates and recruiting in general, not Bowdoin's admissions department as related to the football program.  That's why I said the "recruiting" issue is tough at Bowdoin because of what Williams and Amherst does, not because of what Allegheny does.

To expand on the MIT example, they have a 7% admissions rate, with zero tips.  That doesn't mean recruiting at MIT is harder than it is at Bowdoin even though MIT is competing (and beating) competition with admissions rates 5-10X the rate MIT has. 

[lumbercat]

Sure there are a number of different factors but at the end of the day if you have a lower acceptance rate it's more difficult to recruit. My premise is pretty basic.....Wouldn't it be a little easier for the MIT coaching staff if they had a 20% acceptance rate as opposed to a 7% rate?

[Jonny Utah]

Sure there are a number of different factors but at the end of the day if you have a lower acceptance rate it's more difficult to recruit. My premise is pretty basic.....Wouldn't it be a little easier for the MIT coaching staff if they had a 20% acceptance rate as opposed to a 7% rate?

Easier to what?  Win?  Get the players they want in?  Beat Curry each year?  Be better than Bates? 

These are my points, each school and coach has a different goal.  The Curry staff probably drives around each league in MA talking to HS coaches.  I guess that's easier than what MIT does (calling coaches in different schools each year in different places all over the country?)  Is that the definition of "easy"?  I'm guessing it wouldn't be easier for MIT to recruit at 20% because then MIT wouldn't be MIT, and many of those players might be going to Pitzer or UChicago? 

And obviously the acceptance rate doesn't affect MIT at all as they win their league and games against schools with some of the highest accpetance rates in the country.

[Hawk196]

Sure there are a number of different factors but at the end of the day if you have a lower acceptance rate it's more difficult to recruit. My premise is pretty basic.....Wouldn't it be a little easier for the MIT coaching staff if they had a 20% acceptance rate as opposed to a 7% rate?

Easier to what?  Win?  Get the players they want in?  Beat Curry each year?  Be better than Bates? 

These are my points, each school and coach has a different goal.  The Curry staff probably drives around each league in MA talking to HS coaches.  I guess that's easier than what MIT does (calling coaches in different schools each year in different places all over the country?)  Is that the definition of "easy"?  I'm guessing it wouldn't be easier for MIT to recruit at 20% because then MIT wouldn't be MIT, and many of those players might be going to Pitzer or UChicago? 

And obviously the acceptance rate doesn't affect MIT at all as they win their league and games against schools with some of the highest accpetance rates in the country.

I think the problem with Bowdian is its in God's country. They pursued my son, but 6 hours from NJ is too much (we had better option closer to home) and their record.....who wants to get their brain bashed in for 4 years.....