FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[amh63]

toad22...before going back to football, need to clarify my comment and reference the source of my comment.  Like you, I get my college "annual report" of the College finances by the Chief Financial Officer Report. Great that Williams had positive results.  There is also an annual FY report by the Nat.Assoc. Of College & Universities Business Officers (NACUBO) for over 700 schools in the USA & Canada.  The annual report of NACUBO, now called NACUBO-TIAA (based in D.C.) include other cost elements such as investment fees.  For FY2020, Williams is ranked 37 and Amherst is ranked 43, I recall...Harvard is No. 1...in endowment size.  By adding a number of other factors as fees, school costs, etc., Williams ended up with a small but negative 1.3% result for FY2020. 
Yes, jumpshot...I am interested in Williams.  Amherst was the result of a group of students and teachers leaving "cold" Williamstown.  Williams, as a result proudly created the first college alumni Assoc. Both Harvard and Williams for years slowed the growth of Amherst Via Boston politics.  Amherst and Williams are connected in history.  The battle continues today on the football field...the last game of the year!

[BigKat]

Interesting amh63 , appreciate the color. But back to football. Has the Amherst football attendance always been this sparse? both home games this year have had barely 350 people there...and it's a beautiful facility. Is it a covid thing or student body nonchalance about football team thing?

[nescac1]

My take on attendance - I'm sure COVID is keeping attendance down this year.  Some people are massively risk averse, some might find restrictions too oppressive, some might just want to be there to tailgate and without that are meh on the game, some maybe just got used to staying home - likely all of the above in some combination.  But I think there has been a long term trend in lack of interest in attending live sporting events, football in particular, that predated COVID.  As just one example, even 7-8 years ago a regular season Amherst-Williams hoops game would be packed (at either campus) by tip-off.  Now?  Seems liked seats are plentiful at either.  And football I think has waned in popularity even more.  It just seems like attending live sporting events is a much lower priority for NESCAC students, for the most part, than it once was.  This is purely anecdotal so maybe stats would prove me wrong, and the trend might not hold across schools.  But I feel confident it's true at Williams and Amherst, at least, and no doubt wildly exacerbated due to COVID. 

[amh63]

BigKat...do not have a definitive answer wrt today's student's football interest.  My view of the home games did not show the Amherst side.  The home games to date had other sports elsewhere which lower student attendance.  Yes the Covid restrictions on football spectators...no tailgate areas, etc. also impacted attendance.  Adult supporters would most likely be parents/relatives....also many of the football players are from many other states and yes the present Covid rules have reduced out of state attendees.  Hopefully by "parents day" and homecoming with Williams arriving one should see larger home crowds and student attendance since golf, track, volleyball, and even soccer games will be finished....oops, maybe not since such students have a good chance playing in the post season.  Remember too, Amherst's enrollment is still under 2000...in normal times about 1850 students.

[nescac1]

Some examples of Williams hoops attendance from recent years (excluded years in which Williams played in the NCAA tourney, since those games skew stats wildly):

19-20: 334 home, 316 away
15-16: 344 home, 322 away
11-12: 453 home, 636 away (skewed a bit by 1200 people at Middlebury to end the season)
08-09: 637 home, 492 away

So both home and away attendance has been declining quite a bit, which shows it is not a Williams-exclusive phenomena.  And I bet if stats went back to say the late 1990s, the difference would be even more stark.  Basically, close to a 50 percent drop over just a decade. 

From football, Williams at Amherst in 2008: 7326
Williams hosting Amherst in 2011: 8914

Compared to: Williams hosting Amherst in 2019: 5000
Williams at Amherst in 2018: 1289 (wow that's low !!!). 

Now, I think at some schools it may be different, at least with football.  Wesleyan and Tufts certainly have more fans as their football teams have improved massively from where they were a decade ago, which surely helps (and Wesleyan added the lights which helps too).  But overall, I think there is a clear trend of moving away from in-person sporting event attendance at NESCAC schools.  Lots of reasons for this, I think, including general societal trends regarding live event attendance; a far more diverse (and more international) student body with a wider array of interests (and maybe less into rah-rah school spirit type events); folks being able to watch high-quality video feeds instead of attending games in person (I think this is a big one, especially regarding making road trips to away games); and just a general change in NESCAC culture from an overwhelmingly beer-and-sports drenched scene to something harder to define, just more of a divide between athletes and non-athletes at many of these schools than there once was. 

So, when you take this trend and add COVID, no one should be surprised to see a lot of really, really sparsely attended sporting events this year ...

[SpringSt7]

Williams-Amherst hoops games are still packed--they're just not shoulder to shoulder 10 rows deep and standing on the court packed. Another factor that we've touched upon is streaming, although I don't know how prevalent that is to this year---but if you live 45 minutes away from a NESCAC campus how badly do you really want to go to the game if you can just watch it online?

Additionally, I would imagine there is an aspect of students being so excited to be back on campus that they have so many other things to do on a Saturday afternoon---besides the obvious way to spend a Saturday afternoon in college----I would imagine there is an extra incentive to get out and be active on campus after being away for so long for so many.

Most importantly, how many big matchups have there been this year? Williams vs. Middlebury and Trinity vs. Middlebury? Williams/Middlebury was packed...maybe it's just a Trinity problem 

[amh63]

Nice posts by Williams' grads.  Road TRIPS culture in attendance numbers....have a vehicle/means and more diverse/international students.  Yes, Trinity is Far from Midd and may require an overnight somewhere.  Diverse and international students may not have both a interest and means.  In my days, road trips were quite common...going to visit Boston/Cambridge for food/sights.  My frat had to put up a lot of Dartmouth guys overnight...coming down to visit the local women only colleges.  A little off topic...but illustrate somewhat the culture of road-trips.  In diversity, I include scholarship students.  I worked on campus for spending money. 

[Nescacman]

Some examples of Williams hoops attendance from recent years (excluded years in which Williams played in the NCAA tourney, since those games skew stats wildly):

19-20: 334 home, 316 away
15-16: 344 home, 322 away
11-12: 453 home, 636 away (skewed a bit by 1200 people at Middlebury to end the season)
08-09: 637 home, 492 away

So both home and away attendance has been declining quite a bit, which shows it is not a Williams-exclusive phenomena.  And I bet if stats went back to say the late 1990s, the difference would be even more stark.  Basically, close to a 50 percent drop over just a decade. 

From football, Williams at Amherst in 2008: 7326
Williams hosting Amherst in 2011: 8914

Compared to: Williams hosting Amherst in 2019: 5000
Williams at Amherst in 2018: 1289 (wow that's low !!!). 

Now, I think at some schools it may be different, at least with football.  Wesleyan and Tufts certainly have more fans as their football teams have improved massively from where they were a decade ago, which surely helps (and Wesleyan added the lights which helps too).  But overall, I think there is a clear trend of moving away from in-person sporting event attendance at NESCAC schools.  Lots of reasons for this, I think, including general societal trends regarding live event attendance; a far more diverse (and more international) student body with a wider array of interests (and maybe less into rah-rah school spirit type events); folks being able to watch high-quality video feeds instead of attending games in person (I think this is a big one, especially regarding making road trips to away games); and just a general change in NESCAC culture from an overwhelmingly beer-and-sports drenched scene to something harder to define, just more of a divide between athletes and non-athletes at many of these schools than there once was. 

So, when you take this trend and add COVID, no one should be surprised to see a lot of really, really sparsely attended sporting events this year ...

Slight correction eph1, Wesleyan DOES NOT have lights on Andrus....when they play night games, they bring temp lights in just for that game.

As far as Tufts, they now have perm lights at the new Ellis Oval, but they are not yet hooked up...Why are they not hooked up you ask??? There is a "pissing contest" between athletics and facilities...seems that connecting the new Ellie Oval lights to the Tufts grid was not factored into the stadium construction budget and now they can't figure out who is going to foot the bill to plug the lights in (will probably end up being some poor, unsuspecting Jumbo alum at the end of the day)...that is why the upcoming Jumbos/Cards night game is now a day game....only in the NESCAC!

[Hawk196]

[/quote]

Slight correction eph1, Wesleyan DOES NOT have lights on Andrus....when they play night games, they bring temp lights in just for that game.

As far as Tufts, they now have perm lights at the new Ellis Oval, but they are not yet hooked up...Why are they not hooked up you ask??? There is a "pissing contest" between athletics and facilities...seems that connecting the new Ellie Oval lights to the Tufts grid was not factored into the stadium construction budget and now they can't figure out who is going to foot the bill to plug the lights in (will probably end up being some poor, unsuspecting Jumbo alum at the end of the day)...that is why the upcoming Jumbos/Cards night game is now a day game....only in the NESCAC!
[/quote]

I heard it was an electrical component that is delayed because of supply chain issues. BTW, for temp lights at Tufts it cost $38K for the rental, not happening, nor would I want it to. $38K can help the program vs 3 hours of lighting on a Saturday night

[Charlie]

My take on attendance - I'm sure COVID is keeping attendance down this year.  Some people are massively risk averse, some might find restrictions too oppressive, some might just want to be there to tailgate and without that are meh on the game, some maybe just got used to staying home - likely all of the above in some combination.  But I think there has been a long term trend in lack of interest in attending live sporting events, football in particular, that predated COVID.  As just one example, even 7-8 years ago a regular season Amherst-Williams hoops game would be packed (at either campus) by tip-off.  Now?  Seems liked seats are plentiful at either.  And football I think has waned in popularity even more.  It just seems like attending live sporting events is a much lower priority for NESCAC students, for the most part, than it once was.  This is purely anecdotal so maybe stats would prove me wrong, and the trend might not hold across schools.  But I feel confident it's true at Williams and Amherst, at least, and no doubt wildly exacerbated due to COVID.


While I agree on some points noticing the drop off in attendance . As i stated in prior post there were more Williams fans at The Tufts new field opening day than Tufts students. At The trinity Homecoming this last weekend While there was  decent crowd not a large student body fan section

[The Mole]

2019 Football Attendance figures from the NCAA

D3 Average: 1762

NESCAC ranked 6th out of 28 conferences (45 total games and 99,721 attendance) with 2216 average (+645 YOY)

Home attendance averages:

1. Wesleyan 5047 (4th overall)
2. Trinity 3890 (9th overall)
3. Bowdoin 3258 (19th overall)
4. Middlebury 2611 (Catholic was 30 with 2771 and that is where they stopped)
5. Tufts 1834 (above the 1762 average)
6. Williams 1450
7. Bates 1307
8. Hamilton 1164
9. Colby 1125
10. Amherst 609

The difference in numbers is so wide, no rhyme or reason for the disparity. Culture/effort into the student body and alums is the only explanation

[nescac1]

Bowdoin numbers are stunning to me.   The smallest school in the league, with the worst team in the league ... seems like a huge outlier.  Is it possible there are differences among schools in how attendance is measured / calculated?  The rest of the top five make more sense - larger student bodies, great teams in 2019 or generally, or both.  But Bowdoin?  The Wesleyan number vs the Amherst number also seems crazy ... makes little sense to me. 

[lumbercat]

For whatever its worth allow me weigh in on the topic fan support since my indoctrination into the NESCAC in the late 1970"s. There have been variations over the years but my ratings reflect my overall observations over the years:

Top fan attendance and support over the years:

1. Trinity- everybody loves a winner. Great Home Stadium.
2. Tufts- good fan support which is supplemented by all the Boston area recruits to other Nescac schools who "come home" to play against the Jumbos in Medford.
3. Wesleyan- always good crowds, but like Tufts, the student body is more than double the enrollment at other NESCAC schools.
4.Middlebury- Leaf Peeper Stadium at Hennie Youngman Field. With everybody on one side the attendance numbers are only a rumor.
5.Bates- always a raucous, vocal crowd facilitated by the fact that if you are on the Bates campus you can't help but stop by Garcelon Field- it's the center of everything on campus.
6. Bowdoin- Always good crowds at the most scenic, iconic stadium in New England despite the strong anti football faction in Brunswick the students turn out pretty well.
7.Williams- They love the EPHS but the Football interest in Willytown always seems much less than the turnout for EPHS hoops.
8.Colby- The Cosgrove era has generated bigger crowds but I swear the distance from the field on both sides at that facility makes it a lousy fan experience.
9.Hamilton- Located in outer Siberia there is just not a big population base to produce attendance numbers.
10. Amherst- "Is there a Football game today? If we are not playing Williams lets not hike all the way over to that field". Worst Football fan support forever despite their great Football program.

[lumbercat]

2019 Football Attendance figures from the NCAA

D3 Average: 1762

NESCAC ranked 6th out of 28 conferences (45 total games and 99,721 attendance) with 2216 average (+645 YOY)

Home attendance averages:

1. Wesleyan 5047 (4th overall)
2. Trinity 3890 (9th overall)
3. Bowdoin 3258 (19th overall)
4. Middlebury 2611 (Catholic was 30 with 2771 and that is where they stopped)
5. Tufts 1834 (above the 1762 average)
6. Williams 1450
7. Bates 1307
8. Hamilton 1164
9. Colby 1125
10. Amherst 609

The difference in numbers is so wide, no rhyme or reason for the disparity. Culture/effort into the student body and alums is the only explanation

Mole-

Those numbers are a joke, a guess. The SID picks a number out of thin air by looking at the stands.
The only places where those numbers might have some  limited validity would be Trinity and Tufts where they charge admission.

[The Mole]

lumber, I am simply providing data not a reason. Do not kill the messenger. You can dispute the accuracy, but at least offer a plausible rationale.

2019 Football Attendance figures from the NCAA

D3 Average: 1762

NESCAC ranked 6th out of 28 conferences (45 total games and 99,721 attendance) with 2216 average (+645 YOY)

Home attendance averages:

1. Wesleyan 5047 (4th overall)
2. Trinity 3890 (9th overall)
3. Bowdoin 3258 (19th overall)
4. Middlebury 2611 (Catholic was 30 with 2771 and that is where they stopped)
5. Tufts 1834 (above the 1762 average)
6. Williams 1450
7. Bates 1307
8. Hamilton 1164
9. Colby 1125
10. Amherst 609

The difference in numbers is so wide, no rhyme or reason for the disparity. Culture/effort into the student body and alums is the only explanation

Mole-

Those numbers are a joke, a guess. The SID picks a number out of thin air by looking at the stands.
The only places where those numbers might have some  limited validity would be Trinity and Tufts where they charge admission.