FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[GroundandPound]

Trinity: Mihaly 292, Woodring 280, Jenkins 265, Wiley 285 = Av. 280 (I do not know who fifth regular starter was)
Tufts: Hourihan 260, Luteri, 260, Horning 260, Lobin, 270, Swift 290 = Av. 268
Mid: Fink 290, Mitchell 260, Messina 325, Perry 300, Farrell 285 = Av. 292

Mt. Union: 305, 270, 290, 285, 250 = Av. 280

[Charlie]

Trinity: Mihaly 292, Woodring 280, Jenkins 265, Wiley 285 = Av. 280 (I do not know who fifth regular starter was)
Tufts: Hourihan 260, Luteri, 260, Horning 260, Lobin, 270, Swift 290 = Av. 268
Mid: Fink 290, Mitchell 260, Messina 325, Perry 300, Farrell 285 = Av. 292

Mt. Union: 305, 270, 290, 285, 250 = Av. 280

I think before we offer speculation and stats does anyone have any first hand credible knowledge that any of this is actually a possibility or is this all merely conjecture.

I cant imagine Bowdoin , Hamilton and some of these other schools who by admissions standards will allow these programs to grow rosters for a playoff structure. A realistic expectation I think is adding an extra game or non conference game. But hey if someone knows something love to read about it.

[lumbercat]

Charlie-
Not conjecture but I offer no guarantees- I'm just stating that the NESCAC Football coaches appear strongly unified in a structured appeal to the Colleges to allow the same competitive opportunities to Football which they provide to virtually every other NESCAC athletic program.

[Charlie]

Charlie-
Not conjecture but I offer no guarantees- I'm just stating that the NESCAC Football coaches appear strongly unified in a structured appeal to the Colleges to allow the same competitive opportunities to Football which they provide to virtually every other NESCAC athletic program.

Have you been given any type of speculative time frame a year or two ?

[Ephmen]

That was all Covid driven Charlie- Currently there is momentum to make permanent upgrades. There is an indication of  administrative support to bring Football to the same competitive level of post season participation which is consistent with all of the other sports at NESCAC schools.

It's a NESAC Football equity play and it seems to have legs.

Spring practices also would have required expanding the training staff, which schools may not have viewed as a good investment just to get in 2 weeks of practice in the offseason. 

[Johnny Eph]

Charlie-
Not conjecture but I offer no guarantees- I'm just stating that the NESCAC Football coaches appear strongly unified in a structured appeal to the Colleges to allow the same competitive opportunities to Football which they provide to virtually every other NESCAC athletic program.

The HC's can be as unified as they want but until they convince the President's of the schools nothing will ever come of this pipe dream. In 1993 when Nescac allowed for NCAA participation it was Williams and Amherst President's that led the charge with the President's of Bates and Colby balking at the proposal, but in the end the Colby and Bates Presidents buckled to the pressure to either go along or risk being asked to find a new league. My point is if the top schools in the league want this then eventually the rest of them will be hard pressed not to follow.



I am just pins and needles waiting for this season to begin. Johnny gonna be prepared....

Summer Reading:

1. Becker's "The Birth and Death of Meaning"
2. Huxley's "Point Counter Point"
3. Bobby Peter's "2022 Detroit Lions Complete Offensive Manuel"

[VoodooDoc]

Groundandpound made an interesting point comparing the average weight of several NESCAC teams offensive lines to Mount Union's.  What was missing is a comparison of the 3 or 4 deep that a Mount Union or North Central has at each of those positions.  The top teams in Division 3 have depth, and to go deep into the playoffs it takes depth.  NESCAC teams have some very good players, but the issue is the depth it takes to survive a 15 game season.  Players do get nicked up during a season, and having quality backups that can step to spell or replace starters is the key.

[unionpalooza]

Groundandpound made an interesting point comparing the average weight of several NESCAC teams offensive lines to Mount Union's.  What was missing is a comparison of the 3 or 4 deep that a Mount Union or North Central has at each of those positions.  The top teams in Division 3 have depth, and to go deep into the playoffs it takes depth.  NESCAC teams have some very good players, but the issue is the depth it takes to survive a 15 game season.  Players do get nicked up during a season, and having quality backups that can step to spell or replace starters is the key.

This is the key point - the top programs bring in nearly a hundred freshmen each year, just not something any academically selective school can do.  (North Central is an exception  here; their numbers are actually pretty normal, which make their success all the more amazing.)

[jmcozenlaw]

Just like Covid policies, it's a copy cat sport. As soon as the Ivies raise their hand for post season eligibility, the Nescac will follow. They have spring practices btw so one really has nothing to do with the other ( re Postseason play) Purpose of the limited practices to get the squad some reps and more importantly the coaches a look at players before summer.

As mentioned before.... playing a round, possibly winning and then getting hammered by some D3 powerhouse with zero academic standards doesn't seem all that appealing.

It might take a week or two, but this board never disappoints with the "we are smarter than the rest of you". You really do need to get out of your NESCAC bubble and see the world. As a money manager, it would blow your mind to see the types of assets that many non-NESCACians have built up for themselves. I know that this does not fit the narrative of "there is the NESCAC, the Ivies (for those who could not get into any NESCAC schools) and the remainder are community colleges", but you really need to get out and experience life and see what many others have amassed without a NESCAC degree. It would boggle your mind and might depress the heck out of you if you're not crushing it like them. We all worship the same God (and YES, He DOES exist) so there is no separate God for NESCAC grads, nor a separate heaven (if you get there, you'll just have to slum it with the community college crowd)

By the way. I'm not sure what sport you "excelled in", but Portnoy was never going to play hoops nor football (which he played in high school at Swapscott........without parents named Tad and Buffy) at a school like Michigan....................but his net worth exceeds $160 million so his lack of a college sport, from a non-NESCAC school didn't hurt our Davey one bit. Hit him up for a loan. He's s decent dude who has lost most of that nasty accent.

[lumbercat]

Lets forget the whole educational benefit and the quality of a college experience and just base everything on net worth.
You and Portnoy- all about money.
And BTW - NESCAC God?  bla, bla, bla- go check your brokerage account.

[nescac1]

1. The usual suspects never fail to disappoint with their NESCAC derangement syndrome.  No one (or at least virtually no one) on this board has ever claimed that NESCAC student-athletes are better / smarter / more worthy than any other student-athletes in D3.  But it is of course relevant to any discussion of NESCAC's ability to compete at a national level to note the fact that NESCAC schools have certain recruiting-related constraints, which in some cases severely limit the pool of potential athletes to pick from, that many of the power programs in D3 may not have - stating that obvious fact is in no way equivalent to a claim that NESCAC alumni are in any way superior to those from any other Division 3 school. 

2. I see no world in which NESCAC will ever compete in the post-season IF that means schools need to have 100-man football rosters beyond the pandemic era.  Many NESCAC schools have well under 1000 men on campus, and the administrations / faculty just will not stand for over 10 percent of the male student body hailing from one team on campus.  It would be one thing if these schools had like 10 varsity sports, but NESCAC schools already have a higher percentage of varsity athletes on campus than the vast majority of D3 schools (let alone higher divisions) since many of these schools have 30 plus varsity teams, and all of those coaches want plenty of recruits, too, and will fight for their own slots.  These again are very small schools and they want musicians and theater people and community service types and various types of diversity and all sorts of other boxes that need to be filled and when you block off such a huge percentage of the campus to a single sport, there is going to be pushback (including from other coaches who are losing recruits to football).  I think there may also be Title IX considerations related to routinely having an absolutely massive football roster, but I'm less sure how that works. 

3. That being said I see no point to having football rosters over around 80 or so, regardless of admissions-related considerations.  If there are 100 guys on the team that means the majority of the roster is basically seeing no varsity action the entire season and a good chunk will NEVER see the field in a meaningful situation.  Is that really doing a service to the recruits on the team, most of whom surely expect to actually be PLAYING college football, to just be practice fodder for 3-4 years?  And really why do you need 100 guys on a team to compete in the D3 tourney anyway?  You could have 500 guys on the team and NESCAC schools aren't beating Mount Union, realistically.  But I see no reason why the very best NESCAC team in any given year can't win a  game or two with an 80 man roster.  The last 20 guys are very unlikely to be difference-makers, on such a huge team.  It's only when you get down to rosters in the 60-ish range, like Williams had for Raymond's first few years, that depth becomes a real issue. 

[Charlie]

1. The usual suspects never fail to disappoint with their NESCAC derangement syndrome.  No one (or at least virtually no one) on this board has ever claimed that NESCAC student-athletes are better / smarter / more worthy than any other student-athletes in D3.  But it is of course relevant to any discussion of NESCAC's ability to compete at a national level to note the fact that NESCAC schools have certain recruiting-related constraints, which in some cases severely limit the pool of potential athletes to pick from, that many of the power programs in D3 may not have - stating that obvious fact is in no way equivalent to a claim that NESCAC alumni are in any way superior to those from any other Division 3 school. 

2. I see no world in which NESCAC will ever compete in the post-season IF that means schools need to have 100-man football rosters beyond the pandemic era.  Many NESCAC schools have well under 1000 men on campus, and the administrations / faculty just will not stand for over 10 percent of the male student body hailing from one team on campus.  It would be one thing if these schools had like 10 varsity sports, but NESCAC schools already have a higher percentage of varsity athletes on campus than the vast majority of D3 schools (let alone higher divisions) since many of these schools have 30 plus varsity teams, and all of those coaches want plenty of recruits, too, and will fight for their own slots.  These again are very small schools and they want musicians and theater people and community service types and various types of diversity and all sorts of other boxes that need to be filled and when you block off such a huge percentage of the campus to a single sport, there is going to be pushback (including from other coaches who are losing recruits to football).  I think there may also be Title IX considerations related to routinely having an absolutely massive football roster, but I'm less sure how that works. 

3. That being said I see no point to having football rosters over around 80 or so, regardless of admissions-related considerations.  If there are 100 guys on the team that means the majority of the roster is basically seeing no varsity action the entire season and a good chunk will NEVER see the field in a meaningful situation.  Is that really doing a service to the recruits on the team, most of whom surely expect to actually be PLAYING college football, to just be practice fodder for 3-4 years?  And really why do you need 100 guys on a team to compete in the D3 tourney anyway?  You could have 500 guys on the team and NESCAC schools aren't beating Mount Union, realistically.  But I see no reason why the very best NESCAC team in any given year can't win a  game or two with an 80 man roster.  The last 20 guys are very unlikely to be difference-makers, on such a huge team.  It's only when you get down to rosters in the 60-ish range, like Williams had for Raymond's first few years, that depth becomes a real issue.

You had some very valid points. I believe if anything would have moved the needle it would have been when NESCAC installed spring football practices. This was done under the COVID rules. I believe this was prudent for every teams program. I also think this would have been a start to changing the NESCAC culture. However several school administrators were against this and as a direct result Spring football practices were cancelled the following year.

If NESCAC schools are against this and already there are rumblings of reducing the rosters back to where they were before or a slight modification gives an indication that they are not changing the football landscape.

I would love it if they did but I realistically think the only thing we could hopefully get out of this time period is an extra out of conference game. This would match the Ivy League and make the most sense. I would love a playoff format for the NESCAC top four teams or D3 tournament but think it is too much of a stretch.

Lastly, As stated before I do think if given the opportunity NESCAC football teams could play in the D3 tournament and a playoff format and may surprise a few teams in some rounds. NESCAC schools just because of their hard academic institutions does not mean they do not have athletes and vice versa. I believe we should have realistic expectations and since no one has first hand knowledge that any of this is even being considered it could all be a pipe dream.

[Gray Fox]

I know Pat can answer this correctly, but I think playoff rosters are limited to around 55  players.

[Jonny Utah]

1. The usual suspects never fail to disappoint with their NESCAC derangement syndrome.  No one (or at least virtually no one) on this board has ever claimed that NESCAC student-athletes are better / smarter / more worthy than any other student-athletes in D3.  But it is of course relevant to any discussion of NESCAC's ability to compete at a national level to note the fact that NESCAC schools have certain recruiting-related constraints, which in some cases severely limit the pool of potential athletes to pick from, that many of the power programs in D3 may not have - stating that obvious fact is in no way equivalent to a claim that NESCAC alumni are in any way superior to those from any other Division 3 school. 

2. I see no world in which NESCAC will ever compete in the post-season IF that means schools need to have 100-man football rosters beyond the pandemic era.  Many NESCAC schools have well under 1000 men on campus, and the administrations / faculty just will not stand for over 10 percent of the male student body hailing from one team on campus.  It would be one thing if these schools had like 10 varsity sports, but NESCAC schools already have a higher percentage of varsity athletes on campus than the vast majority of D3 schools (let alone higher divisions) since many of these schools have 30 plus varsity teams, and all of those coaches want plenty of recruits, too, and will fight for their own slots.  These again are very small schools and they want musicians and theater people and community service types and various types of diversity and all sorts of other boxes that need to be filled and when you block off such a huge percentage of the campus to a single sport, there is going to be pushback (including from other coaches who are losing recruits to football).  I think there may also be Title IX considerations related to routinely having an absolutely massive football roster, but I'm less sure how that works. 

3. That being said I see no point to having football rosters over around 80 or so, regardless of admissions-related considerations.  If there are 100 guys on the team that means the majority of the roster is basically seeing no varsity action the entire season and a good chunk will NEVER see the field in a meaningful situation.  Is that really doing a service to the recruits on the team, most of whom surely expect to actually be PLAYING college football, to just be practice fodder for 3-4 years?  And really why do you need 100 guys on a team to compete in the D3 tourney anyway?  You could have 500 guys on the team and NESCAC schools aren't beating Mount Union, realistically.  But I see no reason why the very best NESCAC team in any given year can't win a  game or two with an 80 man roster.  The last 20 guys are very unlikely to be difference-makers, on such a huge team.  It's only when you get down to rosters in the 60-ish range, like Williams had for Raymond's first few years, that depth becomes a real issue.

The playoff rosters are limited and teams need to take that into consideration, especially with special teams during the season. 

Don't overthink this.  The only reason Nescac isn't participating in the playoffs has to do with tradition and not with academic standards.  MIT and JHU don't have to drop their admissions standards to Amherst College's level to compete in the playoffs.  And Stanford doesn't have a problem being in the same league with Oregon and their 90%+ acceptance rates (MIT the same).  And the d3 powerhouses aren't dominating because of academic standards.   North Central and Mt. Union are in good locations for HS football recruits, but Nescac schools can recruit nationally.  There are obvious pros and cons to Nescac schools competing in d3 football but don't overthink it.  Trinity would get smoked by North Central the same way Ithaca and RPI got smoked by them.  Things will hopefully change and maybe the Nescac teams will be a part of that change.  The portal and transfers are going to be big factors going forward.  Many of the top d3 teams have d1 transfers at QB.  I can't blame the nescac either way if they want to stay where they are or compete.  Both are good.

[lumbercat]

Well stated Jonny, very accurate. Glad you posted.
You put some of these runaway conclusions in perspective about the transition to D3 Football championship eligibility. We have to leave comparisons to the over the top programs like Mt Union out of the analysis. Look at the healthy approach of the many small schools who are actually pretty similar to the NESCACs who play 10 games and compete in the championship process with rosters under 100 in many cases.

I believe that standard is the level NESCAC Football programs are currently seeking.