FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Nescacman]

A post that we think EVERYONE (yes, even Uncle Charlie) will agree on....

Shame on the powers that be at the NESCAC mothership for not posting the 2023 League Awards and All-NESCAC Teams prior to Thanksgiving, thus depriving the student-athletes and their families the opportunity to celebrate their successes when they are together for the holiday. Really unfortunate and bad form, if you ask us. Not surprised but disappointed for the student-athletes.

On a more positive note, we wish all of our fellow Boardsters and NESCAC fans a very safe and enjoyable family (yes, even you HS9-o). We ALL have much to be thankful for.

NM

[lumbercat]

Lumber thanks for the kind words- not sure my coaches/players who haven't decided would appreciate disclosing who is coming back or not  . and NM appreciate your kind words and would love to join anytime you'll have me!

I understand- Happy Thanksgiving!

[bantamweight]

On a more positive note, we wish all of our fellow Boardsters and NESCAC fans a very safe and enjoyable family (yes, even you HS9-o). We ALL have much to be thankful for.

Yes, Happy Thanksgiving, NM. We're personally thankful that you paint such a wonderfully big, bright target on your Wesleyanne Turkey-birds. We'll eat well today, but the real feast was back on November 11.

[Bantam4life]

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Appreciate all everyone does for this small league we all love. Special thanks to NM for giving the Bantams constant fuel all season long. Looking forward to another season

[bantamweight]

Our well-placed league sources tell us that Nescacman ate crow for Thanksgiving.

[MammothDad]

Trin9-0,

You seem reasonable and fair.

I hope I can post about Trinity with you to better understand why Trinity is the FB perennial power it it in the NESCAC.

MammothDad, for all the analysis of why Trinity is consistently the dominant NESCAC football power it's a fairly simple formula but one that is difficult to execute.
Great players + great coaching + institutional support = championships.

Trinity has great players: They maximize their recruiting advantages and sell tradition/culture of winning, location, and the alumni network.

• Every recruit who has committed to Trinity since 1998 and played for four years has graduated with at least one championship ring. Every kid wants to win and at Trinity it is almost assured.
• Trinity is located in a capital city with ample internship opportunities, easily accessible to NYC and Boston and is convenient to travel to/from. Beyond the benefits of Hartford, the on campus social scene is a significant selling point for 18 year old men.
• The program does all the right things regarding making sure the student are supported in the classroom with academic advisors, etc. They also have a top-notch alumni career counselling and mentoring program to help players land internships and job opportunities through the vast network of football alumni.

The coaching staff can identify talent, know what kind of kids fit their culture, understand where Trinity fits in the marketplace. They also have a proven ability to develop talent through a consistent strength and conditioning program and good coaching. With all of that said, they don't always just have better players. Tufts, and to a lesser extent Wesleyan, have had rosters that were comparable (if not exceeded Trinity) in terms of high end talent in recent years. 

Trinity has excellent coaching: Beyond Devanney who, despite what some on this board think, is an outstanding head coach, they also have two coordinators who could easily be successful head coaches elsewhere.

• Lew Acquarulo is the Associate Head Coach. He has been at Trinity for 19 seasons and presided over nearly two decades of dominant defenses. He's a TOP tier recruiter and a wildly underrated reason for Trinity's success.
• Mark Melnitsky has been at Trinity for 18 seasons and the offensive coordinator for 13 years. Under his watch Trinity has routinely topped the league in offense and set numerous offensive records.

The benefits of this level of consistency at the top of the program cannot be understated.

Trinity is committed to success: This may be a bit harder to quantify but there is some available data per the U.S. Department of Education which annually produces an Equity in Athletics Data Analysis. You can take a look yourselves but I've compiled the available data relevant to NESCAC football program expenses and what percent of their overall athletics expenses are allocated to football below:





   
   

   
   

   
   


   


   
   
   
   
   

   
   


   

   

School	Football Expenses	% of Overall Athletics Expenses
Tufts	$962,949	15.7%
Trinity	$988,685	15.6%
Hamilton	$789,895	15.2%
Amherst	$816,390	13.1%
Bowdoin	$731,065	12.3%
Wesleyan	$718,959	12.1%
Colby	$852,876	11.5%
Bates	$599,090	10.9%
Middlebury	$598,816	10.9%
Williams	$596,176	9.5%

Trinity is not an outlier, but clearly toward the top echelon of schools who invest in their football program. The aforementioned "tutoring program" is really not much more than a study hall for first year players and those who have a GPA below a certain threshold. All players have the option to seek help from one of three faculty/staff liaisons. These roles are not unique to football at Trinity and at quick glance it appears that many, if not all sports, also have at least one faculty/staff liaisons.

The football program hosts annual networking receptions where alumni come back to campus and talk to students about their career paths and give advice on how to approach various professional tracks. It has been extremely successful and is a big selling point in the recruiting process. Alumni love it too; and we enjoy the engagement that Devanney and his staff provide. Golf tournaments, recognition of past championship teams, coming back to campus to talk to the team during preseason. All of those little things matter when it's time to fundraise and let's be honest, it's more fun to support a winner.

Despite numerous and frequent accusations by posters on this board, I have never seen any evidence that Trinity uses a larger percentage of their allotted tips for football than other sports. They follow all NESCAC and NCAA rules in this regard. Are there kids who get into Trinity that don't get into other NESCAC schools? Yeah, of course. Does Trinity also frequently win recruiting battles for kids who were accepted to other NESCAC schools? Also, yes. They find kids who fit the academic profile of the school and who can contribute to the football program and the College. I feel extremely confident that there is minimal (if any) difference between the overall quality of student on any football rosters in the NESCAC.


As for why there is so much hate for the Bantams I will simply share the following admission of truth from our very own Trinity-hater in chief, who so eloquently provided the single most accurate explanation:

...a lot of the comments made about Hartford State are tongue in cheek and probably made more out of jealousy.

Trin 9-0,

Thank you for such a thoughtful response.  And one that lacked personal shots.

Appreciated.

I'm obviously a Mammoth Homer but I am a kid of the 80s.  To quote the Great Ric Flair "If you want to be the man, you have to beat the man!  Whooo!".

Congrats to Middleburry for doing so this year.

But we all know, year in, year out, that Trinity is the "man" going in to the season.

I hope Amherst looks at that figure spent on FB and allows FB affiliated Alumni to at least match what Trinity spends on FB.  That and to build a dedicated weight room for athletes ONLY.

Coaches need dedicated time with their athletes to push them to their best.  This can not happen with non-athletes present in the facility.  Too much room for drama and problems.

At least athletes of other sports can see a FB player being pushed and understand what is going on, happy they chose another sport.



I have nothing but respect for Trinity FB, in  terms of what they put on the field on Saturdays.  I just hope this new President will allow Amherst to do all that it can to help Amherst FB catch up.

<break>

One more question ...

... do you ever see Trinity "offering" or kids "accepting offers" before SEP?  Trinity was one of the schools who never offered my kid.  Would be interesting to see if they would have.  But my kid did not want to lose out on the Amherst offer so he "committed"  in AUG, before Trinity said they would "offer", in the year he was recruited.

I find it interesting that they can get the talent they get giving the other schools a 2 month jump on them, being that Middleburry was my son's first offer.  And it came in JUL when the preread was complete.


I love the NESCAC and think highly of all the kids.  I look forward to following it for years to come, probably replacing my D1 school.  They NIL madness in D1 FB is causing me to lose interest.

[MammothDad]

While we are on this note-

Congrats to Trinity on being Little 3, CBB, and (whether you like it or not) NESCAC Champs!!! The triple crown sure does feel good 

BantChamps ...

You missed a "Co" ...

It bad enough to tout it.  But to misrepresent it ...

tisk , tisk ...

[MammothDad]

Jut finished my playing career at Bowdoin and look forward to becoming more active on this board. All things considered it was a very disappointing season and a lot was left on the table. I think the Middlebury game will haunt me the most- having the ball on their 6 yard line with a chance to go ahead late in the 4th on the road.. just brutal. Also I thought we should've handled Wes by 10.. the sequence of blocked fg, pick sick, fumble six, broken coverage td right before half absolutely changed that game.. should've been 21-0 at half (shoulda woulda coulda- I know) I think that our offensive skill players were probably the most talented Bowdoin has had in recent memory between Fahey, king, postemski, eden, Watson, Hoggard (who's injury hurt us a lot), and boel/long and not sure a more talented group will roll into Brunswick any time soon- hurts to know we left so many wins on the table- especially as a senior who has seen the talent grow immensely since the time we arrived in Brunswick. Defensively, we were the definition of boom/bust. way too many big plays over the top that absolutely changed momentum in big moments. For such an undersized front 7 I thought we performed very well but obviously trinity exploited that and then some in week 10- they were an absolute wagon. Playing in the nescac has been an amazing experience and I have a lot of respect for a lot of players/coaches as well as the people on this board that spread their passion for nescac football daily.

westcoastnescac,

Feel free to pass on this but ...

... what's the consensus on Hammer?  I liked the dude when I met him.  Seemed serious about FB, which is a good thing in my book as a dad.  You guys work too hard to play for a guy who is "paying the bills", so to speak.

However, dude did some cheezy WWE Stare Down tactic before the Amherst game played at Bowdoin this year and there there were some late hit calls during that game.

Is the guy more an act or is there genuine method to his "madness"?

Again, feel free to pass on this if you do not feel comfortable.

[Charlie]

To those former players who have joined the Boards, welcome. Awesome when other former NESCAC student-athletes jump in. Would love to have you as guests for our NESCAC Football podcast beginning late summer of 2024.     

I hope we could work this out. It would be fun to discuss the outlook of the Bantams shooting for the 3-peat amidst all of the new faces we will see in Hartford, as well as what fans can expect from a player's outlook.

We already have a couple of stellar guests lined up for the podcast including some NESCAC legends. Would love to include you. Please message us privately so we can get the dialogue going. The show will be hosted by yours truly and the voice of the Cards, Chris Grace.

Post a link so we can hear podcast

[Charlie]

Trin9-0,

You seem reasonable and fair.

I hope I can post about Trinity with you to better understand why Trinity is the FB perennial power it it in the NESCAC.

MammothDad, for all the analysis of why Trinity is consistently the dominant NESCAC football power it's a fairly simple formula but one that is difficult to execute.
Great players + great coaching + institutional support = championships.

Trinity has great players: They maximize their recruiting advantages and sell tradition/culture of winning, location, and the alumni network.

• Every recruit who has committed to Trinity since 1998 and played for four years has graduated with at least one championship ring. Every kid wants to win and at Trinity it is almost assured.
• Trinity is located in a capital city with ample internship opportunities, easily accessible to NYC and Boston and is convenient to travel to/from. Beyond the benefits of Hartford, the on campus social scene is a significant selling point for 18 year old men.
• The program does all the right things regarding making sure the student are supported in the classroom with academic advisors, etc. They also have a top-notch alumni career counselling and mentoring program to help players land internships and job opportunities through the vast network of football alumni.

The coaching staff can identify talent, know what kind of kids fit their culture, understand where Trinity fits in the marketplace. They also have a proven ability to develop talent through a consistent strength and conditioning program and good coaching. With all of that said, they don't always just have better players. Tufts, and to a lesser extent Wesleyan, have had rosters that were comparable (if not exceeded Trinity) in terms of high end talent in recent years. 

Trinity has excellent coaching: Beyond Devanney who, despite what some on this board think, is an outstanding head coach, they also have two coordinators who could easily be successful head coaches elsewhere.

• Lew Acquarulo is the Associate Head Coach. He has been at Trinity for 19 seasons and presided over nearly two decades of dominant defenses. He's a TOP tier recruiter and a wildly underrated reason for Trinity's success.
• Mark Melnitsky has been at Trinity for 18 seasons and the offensive coordinator for 13 years. Under his watch Trinity has routinely topped the league in offense and set numerous offensive records.

The benefits of this level of consistency at the top of the program cannot be understated.

Trinity is committed to success: This may be a bit harder to quantify but there is some available data per the U.S. Department of Education which annually produces an Equity in Athletics Data Analysis. You can take a look yourselves but I've compiled the available data relevant to NESCAC football program expenses and what percent of their overall athletics expenses are allocated to football below:





   
   

   
   

   
   


   


   
   
   
   
   

   
   


   

   

School	Football Expenses	% of Overall Athletics Expenses
Tufts	$962,949	15.7%
Trinity	$988,685	15.6%
Hamilton	$789,895	15.2%
Amherst	$816,390	13.1%
Bowdoin	$731,065	12.3%
Wesleyan	$718,959	12.1%
Colby	$852,876	11.5%
Bates	$599,090	10.9%
Middlebury	$598,816	10.9%
Williams	$596,176	9.5%

Trinity is not an outlier, but clearly toward the top echelon of schools who invest in their football program. The aforementioned "tutoring program" is really not much more than a study hall for first year players and those who have a GPA below a certain threshold. All players have the option to seek help from one of three faculty/staff liaisons. These roles are not unique to football at Trinity and at quick glance it appears that many, if not all sports, also have at least one faculty/staff liaisons.

The football program hosts annual networking receptions where alumni come back to campus and talk to students about their career paths and give advice on how to approach various professional tracks. It has been extremely successful and is a big selling point in the recruiting process. Alumni love it too; and we enjoy the engagement that Devanney and his staff provide. Golf tournaments, recognition of past championship teams, coming back to campus to talk to the team during preseason. All of those little things matter when it's time to fundraise and let's be honest, it's more fun to support a winner.

Despite numerous and frequent accusations by posters on this board, I have never seen any evidence that Trinity uses a larger percentage of their allotted tips for football than other sports. They follow all NESCAC and NCAA rules in this regard. Are there kids who get into Trinity that don't get into other NESCAC schools? Yeah, of course. Does Trinity also frequently win recruiting battles for kids who were accepted to other NESCAC schools? Also, yes. They find kids who fit the academic profile of the school and who can contribute to the football program and the College. I feel extremely confident that there is minimal (if any) difference between the overall quality of student on any football rosters in the NESCAC.


As for why there is so much hate for the Bantams I will simply share the following admission of truth from our very own Trinity-hater in chief, who so eloquently provided the single most accurate explanation:

...a lot of the comments made about Hartford State are tongue in cheek and probably made more out of jealousy.

Trin 9-0,

Thank you for such a thoughtful response.  And one that lacked personal shots.

Appreciated.

I'm obviously a Mammoth Homer but I am a kid of the 80s.  To quote the Great Ric Flair "If you want to be the man, you have to beat the man!  Whooo!".

Congrats to Middleburry for doing so this year.

But we all know, year in, year out, that Trinity is the "man" going in to the season.

I hope Amherst looks at that figure spent on FB and allows FB affiliated Alumni to at least match what Trinity spends on FB.  That and to build a dedicated weight room for athletes ONLY.

Coaches need dedicated time with their athletes to push them to their best.  This can not happen with non-athletes present in the facility.  Too much room for drama and problems.

At least athletes of other sports can see a FB player being pushed and understand what is going on, happy they chose another sport.



I have nothing but respect for Trinity FB, in  terms of what they put on the field on Saturdays.  I just hope this new President will allow Amherst to do all that it can to help Amherst FB catch up.

<break>

One more question ...

... do you ever see Trinity "offering" or kids "accepting offers" before SEP?  Trinity was one of the schools who never offered my kid.  Would be interesting to see if they would have.  But my kid did not want to lose out on the Amherst offer so he "committed"  in AUG, before Trinity said they would "offer", in the year he was recruited.

I find it interesting that they can get the talent they get giving the other schools a 2 month jump on them, being that Middleburry was my son's first offer.  And it came in JUL when the preread was complete.


I love the NESCAC and think highly of all the kids.  I look forward to following it for years to come, probably replacing my D1 school.  They NIL madness in D1 FB is causing me to lose interest.

Trinity starts their offer process after a July date where they can get pre reads back. Before this date they usually have an indication if they are going to offer the player based on film , Camps and they put a great deal of stock in there July camp. Immediately after there July camp and pre reads they make offers and expect players to commit early decision. Now I have heard somethings may have changed in the timeline but this is what I know factually up to 2023.

I will say that the rosters sizes are coming into effect in 2025 I think. Trinity made cuts this year of Juniors who would not see the field and some sophomores who did not fit into their plans. I think this is the first year ever having done so. Despite 30 seniors graduating and two great recruiting classes not much activity so far in there offers.

I did hear that the transfer QB from West Virginia they are extremely high on and believe he has three years eligibility.

[MammothDad]

Trinity starts their offer process after a July date where they can get pre reads back. Before this date they usually have an indication if they are going to offer the player based on film , Camps and they put a great deal of stock in there July camp. Immediately after there July camp and pre reads they make offers and expect players to commit early decision. Now I have heard somethings may have changed in the timeline but this is what I know factually up to 2023.

I will say that the rosters sizes are coming into effect in 2025 I think. Trinity made cuts this year of Juniors who would not see the field and some sophomores who did not fit into their plans. I think this is the first year ever having done so. Despite 30 seniors graduating and two great recruiting classes not much activity so far in there offers.

I did hear that the transfer QB from West Virginia they are extremely high on and believe he has three years eligibility.

Charlie,

Thank you!

[BantChamps]

While we are on this note-

Congrats to Trinity on being Little 3, CBB, and (whether you like it or not) NESCAC Champs!!! The triple crown sure does feel good 

BantChamps ...

You missed a "Co" ...

It bad enough to tout it.  But to misrepresent it ...

tisk , tisk ...

Being a Trinity Alumnus, I'll let our more academically adept colleague's discuss the usage of pre-suffixes and the like. I will stick to Champs. Thank you for the concern.

[MammothDad]

Being a Trinity Alumnus, I'll let our more academically adept colleague's discuss the usage of pre-suffixes and the like. I will stick to Champs. Thank you for the concern.

A "Pre-suffix" ...

I'm not my son and went to a directional state school, after 13 year of public education ...

... I guess you did not play FB at Trinity or one of those academic tutors could have helped you with word roots?!?


Signed,


A fan of the 2018 NESCAC FB Champions

[Bantam4life]

Trin9-0,

You seem reasonable and fair.

I hope I can post about Trinity with you to better understand why Trinity is the FB perennial power it it in the NESCAC.

MammothDad, for all the analysis of why Trinity is consistently the dominant NESCAC football power it's a fairly simple formula but one that is difficult to execute.
Great players + great coaching + institutional support = championships.

Trinity has great players: They maximize their recruiting advantages and sell tradition/culture of winning, location, and the alumni network.

• Every recruit who has committed to Trinity since 1998 and played for four years has graduated with at least one championship ring. Every kid wants to win and at Trinity it is almost assured.
• Trinity is located in a capital city with ample internship opportunities, easily accessible to NYC and Boston and is convenient to travel to/from. Beyond the benefits of Hartford, the on campus social scene is a significant selling point for 18 year old men.
• The program does all the right things regarding making sure the student are supported in the classroom with academic advisors, etc. They also have a top-notch alumni career counselling and mentoring program to help players land internships and job opportunities through the vast network of football alumni.

The coaching staff can identify talent, know what kind of kids fit their culture, understand where Trinity fits in the marketplace. They also have a proven ability to develop talent through a consistent strength and conditioning program and good coaching. With all of that said, they don't always just have better players. Tufts, and to a lesser extent Wesleyan, have had rosters that were comparable (if not exceeded Trinity) in terms of high end talent in recent years. 

Trinity has excellent coaching: Beyond Devanney who, despite what some on this board think, is an outstanding head coach, they also have two coordinators who could easily be successful head coaches elsewhere.

• Lew Acquarulo is the Associate Head Coach. He has been at Trinity for 19 seasons and presided over nearly two decades of dominant defenses. He's a TOP tier recruiter and a wildly underrated reason for Trinity's success.
• Mark Melnitsky has been at Trinity for 18 seasons and the offensive coordinator for 13 years. Under his watch Trinity has routinely topped the league in offense and set numerous offensive records.

The benefits of this level of consistency at the top of the program cannot be understated.

Trinity is committed to success: This may be a bit harder to quantify but there is some available data per the U.S. Department of Education which annually produces an Equity in Athletics Data Analysis. You can take a look yourselves but I've compiled the available data relevant to NESCAC football program expenses and what percent of their overall athletics expenses are allocated to football below:





   
   

   
   

   
   


   


   
   
   
   
   

   
   


   

   

School	Football Expenses	% of Overall Athletics Expenses
Tufts	$962,949	15.7%
Trinity	$988,685	15.6%
Hamilton	$789,895	15.2%
Amherst	$816,390	13.1%
Bowdoin	$731,065	12.3%
Wesleyan	$718,959	12.1%
Colby	$852,876	11.5%
Bates	$599,090	10.9%
Middlebury	$598,816	10.9%
Williams	$596,176	9.5%

Trinity is not an outlier, but clearly toward the top echelon of schools who invest in their football program. The aforementioned "tutoring program" is really not much more than a study hall for first year players and those who have a GPA below a certain threshold. All players have the option to seek help from one of three faculty/staff liaisons. These roles are not unique to football at Trinity and at quick glance it appears that many, if not all sports, also have at least one faculty/staff liaisons.

The football program hosts annual networking receptions where alumni come back to campus and talk to students about their career paths and give advice on how to approach various professional tracks. It has been extremely successful and is a big selling point in the recruiting process. Alumni love it too; and we enjoy the engagement that Devanney and his staff provide. Golf tournaments, recognition of past championship teams, coming back to campus to talk to the team during preseason. All of those little things matter when it's time to fundraise and let's be honest, it's more fun to support a winner.

Despite numerous and frequent accusations by posters on this board, I have never seen any evidence that Trinity uses a larger percentage of their allotted tips for football than other sports. They follow all NESCAC and NCAA rules in this regard. Are there kids who get into Trinity that don't get into other NESCAC schools? Yeah, of course. Does Trinity also frequently win recruiting battles for kids who were accepted to other NESCAC schools? Also, yes. They find kids who fit the academic profile of the school and who can contribute to the football program and the College. I feel extremely confident that there is minimal (if any) difference between the overall quality of student on any football rosters in the NESCAC.


As for why there is so much hate for the Bantams I will simply share the following admission of truth from our very own Trinity-hater in chief, who so eloquently provided the single most accurate explanation:

...a lot of the comments made about Hartford State are tongue in cheek and probably made more out of jealousy.

Trin 9-0,

Thank you for such a thoughtful response.  And one that lacked personal shots.

Appreciated.

I'm obviously a Mammoth Homer but I am a kid of the 80s.  To quote the Great Ric Flair "If you want to be the man, you have to beat the man!  Whooo!".

Congrats to Middleburry for doing so this year.

But we all know, year in, year out, that Trinity is the "man" going in to the season.

I hope Amherst looks at that figure spent on FB and allows FB affiliated Alumni to at least match what Trinity spends on FB.  That and to build a dedicated weight room for athletes ONLY.

Coaches need dedicated time with their athletes to push them to their best.  This can not happen with non-athletes present in the facility.  Too much room for drama and problems.

At least athletes of other sports can see a FB player being pushed and understand what is going on, happy they chose another sport.



I have nothing but respect for Trinity FB, in  terms of what they put on the field on Saturdays.  I just hope this new President will allow Amherst to do all that it can to help Amherst FB catch up.

<break>

One more question ...

... do you ever see Trinity "offering" or kids "accepting offers" before SEP?  Trinity was one of the schools who never offered my kid.  Would be interesting to see if they would have.  But my kid did not want to lose out on the Amherst offer so he "committed"  in AUG, before Trinity said they would "offer", in the year he was recruited.

I find it interesting that they can get the talent they get giving the other schools a 2 month jump on them, being that Middleburry was my son's first offer.  And it came in JUL when the preread was complete.


I love the NESCAC and think highly of all the kids.  I look forward to following it for years to come, probably replacing my D1 school.  They NIL madness in D1 FB is causing me to lose interest.

Trinity starts their offer process after a July date where they can get pre reads back. Before this date they usually have an indication if they are going to offer the player based on film , Camps and they put a great deal of stock in there July camp. Immediately after there July camp and pre reads they make offers and expect players to commit early decision. Now I have heard somethings may have changed in the timeline but this is what I know factually up to 2023.

I will say that the rosters sizes are coming into effect in 2025 I think. Trinity made cuts this year of Juniors who would not see the field and some sophomores who did not fit into their plans. I think this is the first year ever having done so. Despite 30 seniors graduating and two great recruiting classes not much activity so far in there offers.

I did hear that the transfer QB from West Virginia they are extremely high on and believe he has three years eligibility.

Charlie- Been hearing that It is Zebrowski's team to lead next season at QB. They have been extremely high on him since day 1 and have heard they are looking forward to seeing him in command next season for the Mighty Roosters

[GroundandPound]

https://www.hudl.com/profile/10832326/Zander-Zebrowski
It looks like he has some wheels and some shake and bake.
If he scrambles and runs well, it adds whole new dimension to Trinity's offense.
It looks like there may be an upside to the top O. Uh O.