FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Back2BackBantam]

Excellent points by G&P, but then you also have to take into account how many teams left their starters in and scored on the Trinity Defense's 3rd string and First Years.  In fact the Co-OPOTY was racking up his stats against 3rd stringers. I'd be curious if anyone knows how many TD's were given up by Trinity in this unbalanced manner.  I also saw a post that Trinity is the only team in College Football (all levels) to give up 0 rushing TD's the whole season.  We all must admit that this is pretty impressive.

I can say with some confidence that 33 of the 115 points allowed by Trinity this year were allowed once the starter was pulled (another 6 were on a blocked punt), which would bring that total of 115 down to 76 points total, divided by the 9 games would be 8.4 ppg allowed by Trinity's starting rotation. Obviously, the same math can be done for Middlebury's defense to a somewhat lesser extent.

However, I would like to argue G&P's conclusion of Middlebury having the better defense in other ways. First off, the Trinity defense allowed nearly 100 less yards per game than the Pant's, and sported a 36% RZ Def compared to Middlebury's 53%.  Trinity also allowed merely 2.3 yards per carry on the ground compared to Midd's 3.3, and as stated, 0 total rushing TDs on the year. As for G&P's ToP argument, I wish there were a stat for number of 3 & out's produced by a defense. I think that would be a manor factor in that statistic.

Another interesting stat is that Midd opponents had the most penalties called against them in the league, compared to Trin having the second least opponent penalties. Similarly, Trin was called for the second most in the league whereas Midd was called for the 3rd least. Now, some say this is discipline or skill based, others may call it luck or just simply NESCAC refereeing. I simply just found it to be an interesting stat, especially that of the penalties against.

Either way, I think it would be very nitpicky and would require a whole lot of explaining and reasoning to argue that Midd has the best defense in the conference this year, especially when nearly every single defensive stat would say otherwise.

If football games were played on paper, Trinity would be outright champs. Unfortunately for Trinity, they are not. I believe an important point to consider this that Middlebury's defense won them games. When the pressure was on and Middlebury needed a play, the defense made the plays that needed to happen. To Trinity's credit, in all but one game their offense was able to put teams away to the point where they did not need to rely on their defense. However, in the one game Trinity's offense needed their counterpart to get a stop, what happened... Trinity let up a 68-yard double move for the go-ahead touchdown. The next drive when Middlebury needed a stop, they picked off the OPOY. Bad call or not, when Middlebury needed a stop on the one-yard line, they got it. When Middlebury was up by two points against Tufts, with their third-string quarterback, and needed a stop, they forced a fumble. When Tufts got the ball AGAIN later in that game, Middlebury came away with a pick-six to win the game. In the Williams game, which Charlie says the Panthers should have lost, Middlebury's defense held Williams to 1 passing yard and 3 points, in a game where Middlebury gave up SEVEN turnovers. Statistically, Trinity may have had a better season, but when the bullets were flying Middlebury's defense made plays to win them games, and eventually the NESCAC championship. On another note, the Offense that was undeniably the best in the league this year was held to ZERO touchdowns against Middlebury. I don't think people talk about that feat enough, the offense that everyone has unanimously hailed as one of the best we have seen in recent memory in the NESCAC did not find the endzone against Middlebury's defense. When we look back on this season, whose defense will we talk about?

I'm not sure where you heard me argue that Trinity was sole champions but I have not done that, not argued against Middlebury winning that game. I'm simply stating that Trinity's defense was more dominant in every statistical way we could measure. The idea that the Bantam D did not make plays when it counted is also a strange point to make. Let's not forget that following that double move for a TD, Middlebury got the ball back. The Trin D forced a turnover on downs, giving their offense ample opportunity. Not to mention, Midd was held to over 100 less yards and 1.9 YPC. The Trin defense also ranked number 1 NATIONALLY at the DIII level in red zone defense. I would say that is the area of the field to make defensive plays in. Middlebury played very well defensively against Trinity, and had a great game plan. I'm not at all trying to take anything away from their season, or that game specifically. My only point is that overall, the Trinity defense was more dominant.

[GroundandPound]

Charlie,
Please copy and paste from my postings where I stated that "Trinity was not the most dominant statistical program in every category in the NESCAC" or words to that effect.  But since you brought it up, I do agree with that statement. They did not "dominate" or even lead every team statistic: Tuft's defense let up fewer yards per game than Trinity's defense; Tufts defense gave up about 38 fewer passing yards per game than Trinity's defense; Tufts ran for more yards per game than Trinity's offense; Bowdoin had five more sacks than Trinity;  Bates had 21 fewer penalties than Trinity; and Bowdoin had a higher time of possession than Trinity.  I do believe, however, that Trinity was the most dominant statistical program in most team statistical categories, except for the most important one: wins and losses. 

[lumbercat]

Agree with G&P
The entire narrative here has evolved way too far into statistics and analytics. It's about wins and losses.
Is this the Trinity arsenal lobbying for a paper title- not sure as I just refuse to read it all.
Why cant we close the book the book on the 23 season with the fact that Middlebury beat Trinity in Hartford and they deserve the title regardless of NESCAC guidelines......the same NESCAC that in its infancy in the 1970's used to list the conference standings and records alphabetically by school.

[Charlie]

Excellent points by G&P, but then you also have to take into account how many teams left their starters in and scored on the Trinity Defense's 3rd string and First Years.  In fact the Co-OPOTY was racking up his stats against 3rd stringers. I'd be curious if anyone knows how many TD's were given up by Trinity in this unbalanced manner.  I also saw a post that Trinity is the only team in College Football (all levels) to give up 0 rushing TD's the whole season.  We all must admit that this is pretty impressive.

I can say with some confidence that 33 of the 115 points allowed by Trinity this year were allowed once the starter was pulled (another 6 were on a blocked punt), which would bring that total of 115 down to 76 points total, divided by the 9 games would be 8.4 ppg allowed by Trinity's starting rotation. Obviously, the same math can be done for Middlebury's defense to a somewhat lesser extent.

However, I would like to argue G&P's conclusion of Middlebury having the better defense in other ways. First off, the Trinity defense allowed nearly 100 less yards per game than the Pant's, and sported a 36% RZ Def compared to Middlebury's 53%.  Trinity also allowed merely 2.3 yards per carry on the ground compared to Midd's 3.3, and as stated, 0 total rushing TDs on the year. As for G&P's ToP argument, I wish there were a stat for number of 3 & out's produced by a defense. I think that would be a manor factor in that statistic.

Another interesting stat is that Midd opponents had the most penalties called against them in the league, compared to Trin having the second least opponent penalties. Similarly, Trin was called for the second most in the league whereas Midd was called for the 3rd least. Now, some say this is discipline or skill based, others may call it luck or just simply NESCAC refereeing. I simply just found it to be an interesting stat, especially that of the penalties against.

Either way, I think it would be very nitpicky and would require a whole lot of explaining and reasoning to argue that Midd has the best defense in the conference this year, especially when nearly every single defensive stat would say otherwise.

If football games were played on paper, Trinity would be outright champs. Unfortunately for Trinity, they are not. I believe an important point to consider this that Middlebury's defense won them games. When the pressure was on and Middlebury needed a play, the defense made the plays that needed to happen. To Trinity's credit, in all but one game their offense was able to put teams away to the point where they did not need to rely on their defense. However, in the one game Trinity's offense needed their counterpart to get a stop, what happened... Trinity let up a 68-yard double move for the go-ahead touchdown. The next drive when Middlebury needed a stop, they picked off the OPOY. Bad call or not, when Middlebury needed a stop on the one-yard line, they got it. When Middlebury was up by two points against Tufts, with their third-string quarterback, and needed a stop, they forced a fumble. When Tufts got the ball AGAIN later in that game, Middlebury came away with a pick-six to win the game. In the Williams game, which Charlie says the Panthers should have lost, Middlebury's defense held Williams to 1 passing yard and 3 points, in a game where Middlebury gave up SEVEN turnovers. Statistically, Trinity may have had a better season, but when the bullets were flying Middlebury's defense made plays to win them games, and eventually the NESCAC championship. On another note, the Offense that was undeniably the best in the league this year was held to ZERO touchdowns against Middlebury. I don't think people talk about that feat enough, the offense that everyone has unanimously hailed as one of the best we have seen in recent memory in the NESCAC did not find the endzone against Middlebury's defense. When we look back on this season, whose defense will we talk about?

I never stated at anytime that Middlebury did not have a great year. I explained that they out game planned and in game Coaching against Trinity was great. They did hold Trinity on that day but you have to even admit as great as they played the last two plays Triity ran were head scratching to say the least. I am not saying Middlebury did not play them well they did. I think Middlebury had a great year as well as Trinity and seeing the current format derserved to be Co-Champions. Williams did let up the last minute touchdown which Williams terrible in game Coaching should have prevented. They did loose to Wesleyan handle and a play or two away from loosing to Colby. Howevere there in game Coaching was terrific and as such the Coaching staff was rewarded.

Again a shame that there is no playoffs a rematch would have been great to watch and perhaps something will be done in the future.

[unionpalooza]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science. 

[Charlie]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

[lumbercat]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

Thank You to the Garnet Dutchman as a neutral guy who stepped in- couldn't agree more.
Is it me or are the Bantams trying to work the stats and numbers to justify this foolish co-championship?
Trinity was second best this year.

[unionpalooza]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

A playoff for what - so Midd and Trinity could play?  They did; one of them won.  You don't need a playoff.

[BantChamps]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

A playoff for what - so Midd and Trinity could play?  They did; one of them won.  You don't need a playoff.

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

[unionpalooza]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

A playoff for what - so Midd and Trinity could play?  They did; one of them won.  You don't need a playoff.

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

Dude, in any normal league, you're the runner-up.  Seems weird to be defending your participation trophy co-championship and then blather about competitiveness. I could literally care less if either of these schools was fired into the sun. But one of them clearly needs to learn how to take the L. 

[BantChamps]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

A playoff for what - so Midd and Trinity could play?  They did; one of them won.  You don't need a playoff.

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

Dude, in any normal league, you're the runner-up.  Seems weird to be defending your participation trophy co-championship and then blather about competitiveness. I could literally care less if either of these schools was fired into the sun. But one of them clearly needs to learn how to take the L.

I can think of a few leagues where this is not the case, one in paticular comes to mind. So no, not every league. In a league that begs perfection, both teams fell short. We cannot pretend Middlebury did not lose to Wesleyan. So I will say again - take it up with the Presidents and ADs that do not allow the same level of competition in football as the rest of NESCAC sports.

[MammothDad]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

... the genius of simplicity ...

[Charlie]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

A playoff for what - so Midd and Trinity could play?  They did; one of them won.  You don't need a playoff.

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

Dude, in any normal league, you're the runner-up.  Seems weird to be defending your participation trophy co-championship and then blather about competitiveness. I could literally care less if either of these schools was fired into the sun. But one of them clearly needs to learn how to take the L.

I can think of a few leagues where this is not the case, one in paticular comes to mind. So no, not every league. In a league that begs perfection, both teams fell short. We cannot pretend Middlebury did not lose to Wesleyan. So I will say again - take it up with the Presidents and ADs that do not allow the same level of competition in football as the rest of NESCAC sports.

Take a look at the Ivy League this year. Yale looses to Harvard yet is Co-Champion with Harvard , Yale & Dartmouth. Ivy League has three Co Champions. Oh I am sorry I thought NESCAC follows the Ivy League model for football.

Enough of this onto to Next year.

[MammothDad]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

Why would a closed league where ALL teams play each other need a "playoff" or Championship Game?

EVERY WEEK is a playoff game; the premise that made CFB better than the other sports with playoffs.

The D1 basketball playoffs more reward the "hot team" at the end, more than the season's most deserved team.  It is what it is and its fair, being that it is known PRIOR to the beginning.  However, its why I like CFB more than the other sports; you have to play every week as opposed to "get in and get hot", so to speak.

I do wish the NESCAC would send it's Champ (1 determined by criteria) to a D3 Bowl Game against another good academic school after the season.  It would be fun to see how we stack up against a #2 from another conference.

And yes, I know the "Co" label is appropriate in 3 way ties and the rare 4 way, we almost saw play out this year.

But even with a legit 3 way Co Champ situation, there can be a statistical way to determine the team to represent the NESCAC in a Bowl game.

Candidates to be considered each year could be from a pool of the following:

Massachusetts Institute of Technology
University of Chicago
Johns Hopkins University
Washington and Lee University
Carnegie Mellon University
Carleton College
Grinnell College
~
Merchant Marine
Coast Guard
Norwhich ?

[unionpalooza]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

A playoff for what - so Midd and Trinity could play?  They did; one of them won.  You don't need a playoff.

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

Dude, in any normal league, you're the runner-up.  Seems weird to be defending your participation trophy co-championship and then blather about competitiveness. I could literally care less if either of these schools was fired into the sun. But one of them clearly needs to learn how to take the L.

I can think of a few leagues where this is not the case, one in paticular comes to mind. So no, not every league. In a league that begs perfection, both teams fell short. We cannot pretend Middlebury did not lose to Wesleyan. So I will say again - take it up with the Presidents and ADs that do not allow the same level of competition in football as the rest of NESCAC sports.

You're missing my point. If you had the same level of competition in football - that is, access to the NCAA championship - you would almost certainly have a tiebreaker that sent Midd to the playoffs, not Trinity.  Trinity is the one benefitting from the lack of competition you seem to be complaining about.

I'm just trying to give you all a sense of how dumb this argument sounds to anyone on the outside.