FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[MammothDad]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

A playoff for what - so Midd and Trinity could play?  They did; one of them won.  You don't need a playoff.

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

If you truly believe in what you type, let me know when you start up the process to repaint "Co-Champion" over "Champion" on the 2018 banner.

[Pat Coleman]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

Why would a closed league where ALL teams play each other need a "playoff" or Championship Game?

EVERY WEEK is a playoff game; the premise that made CFB better than the other sports with playoffs.

The D1 basketball playoffs more reward the "hot team" at the end, more than the season's most deserved team.  It is what it is and its fair, being that it is known PRIOR to the beginning.  However, its why I like CFB more than the other sports; you have to play every week as opposed to "get in and get hot", so to speak.

I do wish the NESCAC would send it's Champ (1 determined by criteria) to a D3 Bowl Game against another good academic school after the season.  It would be fun to see how we stack up against a #2 from another conference.

And yes, I know the "Co" label is appropriate in 3 way ties and the rare 4 way, we almost saw play out this year.

But even with a legit 3 way Co Champ situation, there can be a statistical way to determine the team to represent the NESCAC in a Bowl game.

Candidates to be considered each year could be from a pool of the following:

Massachusetts Institute of Technology
University of Chicago
Johns Hopkins University
Washington and Lee University
Carnegie Mellon University
Carleton College
Grinnell College
~
Merchant Marine
Coast Guard
Norwhich ?

See, I don't know why a NESCAC team coming off a rivalry game would want to play in a bowl game. (And Johns Hopkins is perfectly happy to compete in the national quarterfinals.)

Play in the NCAA playoffs? Sure. But in a relatively meaningless bowl coming off your Week 11 game, which is often against one of your biggest rivals? Kind of a letdown.

[MammothDad]

[/quote]

See, I don't know why a NESCAC team coming off a rivalry game would want to play in a bowl game. (And Johns Hopkins is perfectly happy to compete in the national quarterfinals.)

Play in the NCAA playoffs? Sure. But in a relatively meaningless bowl coming off your Week 11 game, which is often against one of your biggest rivals? Kind of a letdown.
[/quote]

Agreed that JH is more happy to play in playoffs???

Hence the #2 verbiage.

Did anyone ask the kids?  I know the season ending rivalry game is climatic but I bet the Champ would love one opportunity to play outside the Conference.

As for if a Bowl could generate enough money to pay for another academic to travel to the Northeast to play a Bowl Game, that's to be seen.

But Boston College could be a very enticing venue to attract alumnus from other prestigious schools to come and visit Boston, seeing their team match up against the NESCAC.

I accept your disagreement.  We'll agree to disagree.

[BantChamps]

As an independent observer, this whole debate seems baffling.  You had two 8-1 teams and one of them beat the other. Figuring out which team was the "best" or de facto "champion" is not rocket science.

There is a difference since there is no playoffs. This is why the NESCAC has to adjust this insanity and have a playoff. They can easliy do this just start the season one week earlier it is not difficult.

A playoff for what - so Midd and Trinity could play?  They did; one of them won.  You don't need a playoff.

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

Dude, in any normal league, you're the runner-up.  Seems weird to be defending your participation trophy co-championship and then blather about competitiveness. I could literally care less if either of these schools was fired into the sun. But one of them clearly needs to learn how to take the L.

I can think of a few leagues where this is not the case, one in paticular comes to mind. So no, not every league. In a league that begs perfection, both teams fell short. We cannot pretend Middlebury did not lose to Wesleyan. So I will say again - take it up with the Presidents and ADs that do not allow the same level of competition in football as the rest of NESCAC sports.

You're missing my point. If you had the same level of competition in football - that is, access to the NCAA championship - you would almost certainly have a tiebreaker that sent Midd to the playoffs, not Trinity.  Trinity is the one benefitting from the lack of competition you seem to be complaining about.

I'm just trying to give you all a sense of how dumb this argument sounds to anyone on the outside.

Your point is irrelevant. The rules are the rules. If you want to change them to create a single champion take it up with the league. A sole champion would create much better competition. But, as of now you got two champs so I will continue to claim a Trinity Championship. Like I said before there won't be an asterisk next to either teams name in the record books to denote who the talking heads of this board claim "the real" champion was.

[MapleBBQChicken]

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

I'm not super interested in re-opening the Champions/Co-Champions debate because I think it has been driven into the ground already, but I strongly disagree with the "Mickey Mouse ring" part of this post. The bubble was weird because it was unlike any other season. What made this year such an exception in NESCAC football that an 8-1 Middlebury should have any type of asterisk next to their championship? Wesleyan was a not a great team, I'm not disagreeing with you there, but a loss to the 4th place finisher by 3 on the road is not some egregiously bad performance. And when we came back to Connecticut three weeks later, we took care of business. I'm not going to dwell on that game in Hartford because, as I said, the validity of Trinity's co-championship has been discussed enough, and we were both there and know what happened. I just want to say that the idea that Middlebury should have an asterisk is a complete joke.

[Jonny Utah]

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

I'm not super interested in re-opening the Champions/Co-Champions debate because I think it has been driven into the ground already, but I strongly disagree with the "Mickey Mouse ring" part of this post. The bubble was weird because it was unlike any other season. What made this year such an exception in NESCAC football that an 8-1 Middlebury should have any type of asterisk next to their championship? Wesleyan was a not a great team, I'm not disagreeing with you there, but a loss to the 4th place finisher by 3 on the road is not some egregiously bad performance. And when we came back to Connecticut three weeks later, we took care of business. I'm not going to dwell on that game in Hartford because, as I said, the validity of Trinity's co-championship has been discussed enough, and we were both there and know what happened. I just want to say that the idea that Middlebury should have an asterisk is a complete joke.

It is a joke.  When the Nescac decides to go to the playoffs, there won't be a championship game.  Middlebury would be  the pool A bid.   

[GroundandPound]

https://nescacfootballreport.com/weekly-previews/
Final Season Summary for each team.

[MammothDad]

It is a joke.  When the Nescac decides to go to the playoffs, there won't be a championship game.  Middlebury would be  the pool A bid.

Open question to all for the consensus ...

... do most of you think the NESCAC will move in the direction of participating in the D3 playoff?

I'll defer to y'all as to the long term trend but personally, as a father, NOT participating in the playoff was a good thing about the NESCAC.  I'm sure Mount Union and Central IL have plenty of PE majors on their rosters.

No way to compete and will only set up the coaches to expect more out of them.  Trinity already sets a high enough bar for what should be expected of a non-scholarship athlete, in my opinion.

They need their time off to study and do other parts of student life.

[Charlie]

It is a joke.  When the Nescac decides to go to the playoffs, there won't be a championship game.  Middlebury would be  the pool A bid.

Open question to all for the consensus ...

... do most of you think the NESCAC will move in the direction of participating in the D3 playoff?

I'll defer to y'all as to the long term trend but personally, as a father, NOT participating in the playoff was a good thing about the NESCAC.  I'm sure Mount Union and Central IL have plenty of PE majors on their rosters.

No way to compete and will only set up the coaches to expect more out of them.  Trinity already sets a high enough bar for what should be expected of a non-scholarship athlete, in my opinion.

They need their time off to study and do other parts of student life.

I do think the NESCAC will do something. A very interesting trend is taking place out there and I am not sure if others are seeing the same thing.

The amount of kids that are transferring down to the D3 level to play. I think kids are realizing how hard it is to go from High School and play in D1 & D2 levels especially now with the transfer portal. I think the NESCAC is going to be very attractive for athletes and make the league more competitive in this regard. Now I understand the academics and all and the Tuition component.

Having said that NESCAC schools are going to be real good choices providing kids meet the academic and financial criteria. Which leads me to believe that in time NESCAC will be adjusting to either a 10 game schedule or at minimum an inter league playoff. They have already started with the spring practices. So teams like a Bates and Hamilton could get a few ringers and the landscape of NESCAC football could start to see a change in the next few years.

[BantChamps]

This who won what is fun conjecture. However, the fact is Trinity and Middlebury are Co Champions. There will be no asterisk about week 5 In the record books. Yes, there could be a conference championship game. Yes, there could be an outright winner determined by tie breakers. As it stands though there is not. That being said, based off Midd's loss to a very subpar Wesleyan team, I'd have to discern the Panther's ring as a LeBron James bubble-esque "Mickey Mouse" ring. If you see issue with that I suggest you take it up with the "woke" presidents of certain nescac schools who disallow competitiveness when it comes to football.

I'm not super interested in re-opening the Champions/Co-Champions debate because I think it has been driven into the ground already, but I strongly disagree with the "Mickey Mouse ring" part of this post. The bubble was weird because it was unlike any other season. What made this year such an exception in NESCAC football that an 8-1 Middlebury should have any type of asterisk next to their championship? Wesleyan was a not a great team, I'm not disagreeing with you there, but a loss to the 4th place finisher by 3 on the road is not some egregiously bad performance. And when we came back to Connecticut three weeks later, we took care of business. I'm not going to dwell on that game in Hartford because, as I said, the validity of Trinity's co-championship has been discussed enough, and we were both there and know what happened. I just want to say that the idea that Middlebury should have an asterisk is a complete joke.

You misunderstood me. I am saying there will not be an asterik. Both teams are noted champions and there will not be an asterisk saying "Middlebury beat Trinity" in the record books. Basically what I am saying is the argument of who is the real champion is pointless as the conversation could go on forever and has no real conclusion. The Mickey Mouse ring was a joke to make smoke come out of the ears of the more literal people on this board...

[Jonny Utah]

It is a joke.  When the Nescac decides to go to the playoffs, there won't be a championship game.  Middlebury would be  the pool A bid.

Open question to all for the consensus ...

... do most of you think the NESCAC will move in the direction of participating in the D3 playoff?

I'll defer to y'all as to the long term trend but personally, as a father, NOT participating in the playoff was a good thing about the NESCAC.  I'm sure Mount Union and Central IL have plenty of PE majors on their rosters.

No way to compete and will only set up the coaches to expect more out of them.  Trinity already sets a high enough bar for what should be expected of a non-scholarship athlete, in my opinion.

They need their time off to study and do other parts of student life.

I do think the NESCAC will do something. A very interesting trend is taking place out there and I am not sure if others are seeing the same thing.

The amount of kids that are transferring down to the D3 level to play. I think kids are realizing how hard it is to go from High School and play in D1 & D2 levels especially now with the transfer portal. I think the NESCAC is going to be very attractive for athletes and make the league more competitive in this regard. Now I understand the academics and all and the Tuition component.

Having said that NESCAC schools are going to be real good choices providing kids meet the academic and financial criteria. Which leads me to believe that in time NESCAC will be adjusting to either a 10 game schedule or at minimum an inter league playoff. They have already started with the spring practices. So teams like a Bates and Hamilton could get a few ringers and the landscape of NESCAC football could start to see a change in the next few years.

Aren't we seeing the opposite?  D3 guys going up when they have the chance?  Back in the 1990s when I played it seemed to be the other way around with 1-AA guys coming down to get playing time.  Kids these days would rather be a backup on a d1 roster than play at a d3 school.  That's just my eyeball observation.

As for the playoffs, nescac teams only have to look at MIT or JHU for eastern teams that choose to play in the national playoffs.  MIT doesn't care what league they are in and they don't do what the nescac does and bend the admissions process at all for athletes.  I'd say if MIT was in the nescac they would have won 2-3 championships over the past 20 years.  At least 1 anyway from the games I've seen.  JHU on the other hand I am guessing has some breaks for athletes.

Anyway the Nescac schools would do what MIT, Curry, Ithaca or Norwich does against Mt. Union or NCC and that isn't much. 

[Charlie]

It is a joke.  When the Nescac decides to go to the playoffs, there won't be a championship game.  Middlebury would be  the pool A bid.

Open question to all for the consensus ...

... do most of you think the NESCAC will move in the direction of participating in the D3 playoff?

I'll defer to y'all as to the long term trend but personally, as a father, NOT participating in the playoff was a good thing about the NESCAC.  I'm sure Mount Union and Central IL have plenty of PE majors on their rosters.

No way to compete and will only set up the coaches to expect more out of them.  Trinity already sets a high enough bar for what should be expected of a non-scholarship athlete, in my opinion.

They need their time off to study and do other parts of student life.

I do think the NESCAC will do something. A very interesting trend is taking place out there and I am not sure if others are seeing the same thing.

The amount of kids that are transferring down to the D3 level to play. I think kids are realizing how hard it is to go from High School and play in D1 & D2 levels especially now with the transfer portal. I think the NESCAC is going to be very attractive for athletes and make the league more competitive in this regard. Now I understand the academics and all and the Tuition component.

Having said that NESCAC schools are going to be real good choices providing kids meet the academic and financial criteria. Which leads me to believe that in time NESCAC will be adjusting to either a 10 game schedule or at minimum an inter league playoff. They have already started with the spring practices. So teams like a Bates and Hamilton could get a few ringers and the landscape of NESCAC football could start to see a change in the next few years.

Aren't we seeing the opposite?  D3 guys going up when they have the chance?  Back in the 1990s when I played it seemed to be the other way around with 1-AA guys coming down to get playing time.  Kids these days would rather be a backup on a d1 roster than play at a d3 school.  That's just my eyeball observation.

As for the playoffs, nescac teams only have to look at MIT or JHU for eastern teams that choose to play in the national playoffs.  MIT doesn't care what league they are in and they don't do what the nescac does and bend the admissions process at all for athletes.  I'd say if MIT was in the nescac they would have won 2-3 championships over the past 20 years.  At least 1 anyway from the games I've seen.  JHU on the other hand I am guessing has some breaks for athletes.

Anyway the Nescac schools would do what MIT, Curry, Ithaca or Norwich does against Mt. Union or NCC and that isn't much.

This I think used to be the trend but with so many kids wanting to play and there not being the open spots there once was I think D3 is going to be seeing huge turnouts of players. Not to mention the fact that many of these kids have the heart to play at D1 but frankly can't and are realizing that they may never play and want to play football. You are correct though that a great deal in the past went up a level to play but seeing a great deal of players going down now to play. This is not a knock on D# but simply way to many kids in portal and easier for Coaches to take a kid in the portal that have experienced College ball than a high school player who inevitably needs a year to develop.

[Jonny Utah]

It is a joke.  When the Nescac decides to go to the playoffs, there won't be a championship game.  Middlebury would be  the pool A bid.

Open question to all for the consensus ...

... do most of you think the NESCAC will move in the direction of participating in the D3 playoff?

I'll defer to y'all as to the long term trend but personally, as a father, NOT participating in the playoff was a good thing about the NESCAC.  I'm sure Mount Union and Central IL have plenty of PE majors on their rosters.

No way to compete and will only set up the coaches to expect more out of them.  Trinity already sets a high enough bar for what should be expected of a non-scholarship athlete, in my opinion.

They need their time off to study and do other parts of student life.

I do think the NESCAC will do something. A very interesting trend is taking place out there and I am not sure if others are seeing the same thing.

The amount of kids that are transferring down to the D3 level to play. I think kids are realizing how hard it is to go from High School and play in D1 & D2 levels especially now with the transfer portal. I think the NESCAC is going to be very attractive for athletes and make the league more competitive in this regard. Now I understand the academics and all and the Tuition component.

Having said that NESCAC schools are going to be real good choices providing kids meet the academic and financial criteria. Which leads me to believe that in time NESCAC will be adjusting to either a 10 game schedule or at minimum an inter league playoff. They have already started with the spring practices. So teams like a Bates and Hamilton could get a few ringers and the landscape of NESCAC football could start to see a change in the next few years.

Aren't we seeing the opposite?  D3 guys going up when they have the chance?  Back in the 1990s when I played it seemed to be the other way around with 1-AA guys coming down to get playing time.  Kids these days would rather be a backup on a d1 roster than play at a d3 school.  That's just my eyeball observation.

As for the playoffs, nescac teams only have to look at MIT or JHU for eastern teams that choose to play in the national playoffs.  MIT doesn't care what league they are in and they don't do what the nescac does and bend the admissions process at all for athletes.  I'd say if MIT was in the nescac they would have won 2-3 championships over the past 20 years.  At least 1 anyway from the games I've seen.  JHU on the other hand I am guessing has some breaks for athletes.

Anyway the Nescac schools would do what MIT, Curry, Ithaca or Norwich does against Mt. Union or NCC and that isn't much.

This I think used to be the trend but with so many kids wanting to play and there not being the open spots there once was I think D3 is going to be seeing huge turnouts of players. Not to mention the fact that many of these kids have the heart to play at D1 but frankly can't and are realizing that they may never play and want to play football. You are correct though that a great deal in the past went up a level to play but seeing a great deal of players going down now to play. This is not a knock on D# but simply way to many kids in portal and easier for Coaches to take a kid in the portal that have experienced College ball than a high school player who inevitably needs a year to develop.

Yea I'm not 100% sure on this and maybe it's the Gen Z/boomber in me that is coming out, but I have been coaching HS football in MA for 20+ years.  In 2000 if a kid had an opportunity to go to Bates or Bentley to play football, the kid goes to Bates 9/10 times.  In 2023 the kid probably goes to Bentley 5/10 times because it is "d2" football.  I had a kid specifically who would have fit in well at a Nescac but he was adamant he was a d1 player and ended up going to prep school then walking onto Boston College where he never saw a down (and was a walk on)  Good for him if he wants to do that but I doubt he would have started at a top Nescac school either way. 

[IC798891]

Play in the NCAA playoffs? Sure. But in a relatively meaningless bowl coming off your Week 11 game, which is often against one of your biggest rivals? Kind of a letdown.

Several Ithaca teams nodding their heads

[MammothDad]

Yea I'm not 100% sure on this and maybe it's the Gen Z/boomber in me that is coming out, but I have been coaching HS football in MA for 20+ years.  In 2000 if a kid had an opportunity to go to Bates or Bentley to play football, the kid goes to Bates 9/10 times.  In 2023 the kid probably goes to Bentley 5/10 times because it is "d2" football.  I had a kid specifically who would have fit in well at a Nescac but he was adamant he was a d1 player and ended up going to prep school then walking onto Boston College where he never saw a down (and was a walk on)  Good for him if he wants to do that but I doubt he would have started at a top Nescac school either way.

Just an anecdote to offer in support of your theory ...

... where I live, MANY of the kids that had little impact on their HS Teams but had dads with money loved the "Preferred Walk On" "offer" from D1 FCS schools, just some they could say there were a D1 athlete.

Dad paid to the boosters and paid full tuition.  Only costs the school a locker.

The Pioneer League is the epitome of this.  They want D1 basketball money but find a way to field a non-scholarship FB program.  Kids are happy, just so they can brag they were a "D1 Athlete", even if it was no more than holding a helmet their Sr. year on the sidelines.

We were hoping that FB could open a door in to an Ivy with our son.  However, the "test optional" world today has affected the "academic bands" of the past.  In the olden days, they would bring on an A band with little concern if they panned out as a player.  They just needed them to get to the lower band ballers.

Now, Coaches in the Ivies instruct the kids NOT to take the tests.  GPA ONLY allows greater flexibility.

The Patriots are great because they offer 60 scholarships.  But my son probably would not have been offered a full or part scholarship so the NESCAC has been great.

I know the kids at Holy Cross and at the Ivies work VERY HARD.  Sometimes their majors are affected because of the FB commitment.

That's why I hope Trinity remains the "standard setter", in terms of FB commitment.  Amherst offers a lot of other items to help you while in school that help your paycheck/opportunities.  So glad he is encouraged to explore and engage in them, while keeping up with off season workouts.