FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[MammothDad]

Several Ithaca teams nodding their heads

You played at Ithaca, right?

No interest in playing in a Bowl Game in Boston, if you were #2 that year, meaning the Playoffs are out.  Right?

[Jonny Utah]

Several Ithaca teams nodding their heads

You played at Ithaca, right?

No interest in playing in a Bowl Game in Boston, if you were #2 that year, meaning the Playoffs are out.  Right?

Good question and I think it depends when you ended up the #2.  If you are up for a playoff spot and then in the last game you lose and miss the playoffs, I'm not sure a team can rebound for another game.  But if you start out 0-3 and then rattle out a bunch of wins and end up eligible for an ECAC bowl then that might be a different story.  I was on a team that played Worcester State in an ECAC game.  It was fine and I'm not gonna say guys on the team were against it.  We practiced fine enough and ended up winning.  The year after I left though I heard some stories about the ECAC game at Union where Ithaca players simply weren't up for it.  There are some back stories there that I don't even know about but I think Ithaca even backed out of some of the ECAC chances a few years because of that experience. 

But I'll say this, if Hobart (or Ithaca in a different year) got the chance to play Trinity or Williams at Fenway Park then I bet they are fired up and excited to play that game. 

[MammothDad]

Good question and I think it depends when you ended up the #2.  If you are up for a playoff spot and then in the last game you lose and miss the playoffs, I'm not sure a team can rebound for another game.  But if you start out 0-3 and then rattle out a bunch of wins and end up eligible for an ECAC bowl then that might be a different story.  I was on a team that played Worcester State in an ECAC game.  It was fine and I'm not gonna say guys on the team were against it.  We practiced fine enough and ended up winning.  The year after I left though I heard some stories about the ECAC game at Union where Ithaca players simply weren't up for it.  There are some back stories there that I don't even know about but I think Ithaca even backed out of some of the ECAC chances a few years because of that experience. 

But I'll say this, if Hobart (or Ithaca in a different year) got the chance to play Trinity or Williams at Fenway Park then I bet they are fired up and excited to play that game.

That's the other idea I've been kicking up here but got nowhere with Fenway calling back.

Was for the NESCAC to host a double header at Fenway.  Assuming Tufts (geography) and Trinity (RS GM alumnus) would be 2 and the other 2 from Wesleyan, Amherst and/or Williams.

Make a competition out of preselling seat licensees or something to benefit a charity and the first 4 to hit their quota are in.

Then require the 4 to sell their tickets by a date.

Seems feasible.  Seems like the alumnus who aren't interested in traveling to the game could donate the tickets to a student and/or Boston area charity to give away.

Anyway, thanks for sharing.

I love that the NESCAC is closed to similar schools but it would be nice to see how our Champ could stack up outside the league, knowing full well another D3 League Champ will always prefer (be obligated?) to go to the D3 Playoffs.

Thanks!

[MapleBBQChicken]

Open question to all for the consensus ...

... do most of you think the NESCAC will move in the direction of participating in the D3 playoff?

I'll defer to y'all as to the long term trend but personally, as a father, NOT participating in the playoff was a good thing about the NESCAC.  I'm sure Mount Union and Central IL have plenty of PE majors on their rosters.

No way to compete and will only set up the coaches to expect more out of them.  Trinity already sets a high enough bar for what should be expected of a non-scholarship athlete, in my opinion.

They need their time off to study and do other parts of student life.

MammothDad – While I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say over the past few weeks, I don't agree here. I think the notion that because we are at elite academic schools we need to shut football down in early November is illogical. If we can successfully balance football, academics, and non-football extracurriculars until then, there's no reason we can't do it the whole semester. Every other NESCAC sport is allowed to play in the NCAA tournament. And it's not like there aren't high-academic programs in the field for football. Johns Hopkins and MIT have been mentioned already, and if we expand geographically, U Chicago and the Claremont/Harvey Mudd team both play in conferences with automatic bids to the NCAA tournament. I don't see why football needs to be treated differently from other NESCAC sports, and I don't see why the NESCAC needs to be treated differently from the rest of the country. Let the boys play.

[MammothDad]

MammothDad – While I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say over the past few weeks, I don't agree here. I think the notion that because we are at elite academic schools we need to shut football down in early November is illogical. If we can successfully balance football, academics, and non-football extracurriculars until then, there's no reason we can't do it the whole semester. Every other NESCAC sport is allowed to play in the NCAA tournament. And it's not like there aren't high-academic programs in the field for football. Johns Hopkins and MIT have been mentioned already, and if we expand geographically, U Chicago and the Claremont/Harvey Mudd team both play in conferences with automatic bids to the NCAA tournament. I don't see why football needs to be treated differently from other NESCAC sports, and I don't see why the NESCAC needs to be treated differently from the rest of the country. Let the boys play.

Thanks.  Are you a former NESCAC player?

Some of the people on here are amazing with their research skills.  Let's see what the Playoff records are for "academic" schools in the D3 Playoffs.

Just hate to see the joy of League Champ be fizzled when the school spends lots of money to travel to a loss of a school where the players are majoring in PE, destined to be HS coaches with a debt load they can never pay off.

But if the kids and the Admins are supportive of it, sure.  Get in the dance.  Just remember, 31 teams end on a let down in the playoff.

[BigKat]

Johns Hopkins was a fg away from being in final 4. Bet they wouldn't trade that experience.

[MammothDad]

Johns Hopkins was a fg away from being in final 4. Bet they wouldn't trade that experience.

touché

[Jonny Utah]

MammothDad – While I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say over the past few weeks, I don't agree here. I think the notion that because we are at elite academic schools we need to shut football down in early November is illogical. If we can successfully balance football, academics, and non-football extracurriculars until then, there's no reason we can't do it the whole semester. Every other NESCAC sport is allowed to play in the NCAA tournament. And it's not like there aren't high-academic programs in the field for football. Johns Hopkins and MIT have been mentioned already, and if we expand geographically, U Chicago and the Claremont/Harvey Mudd team both play in conferences with automatic bids to the NCAA tournament. I don't see why football needs to be treated differently from other NESCAC sports, and I don't see why the NESCAC needs to be treated differently from the rest of the country. Let the boys play.

Thanks.  Are you a former NESCAC player?

Some of the people on here are amazing with their research skills.  Let's see what the Playoff records are for "academic" schools in the D3 Playoffs.

Just hate to see the joy of League Champ be fizzled when the school spends lots of money to travel to a loss of a school where the players are majoring in PE, destined to be HS coaches with a debt load they can never pay off.

But if the kids and the Admins are supportive of it, sure.  Get in the dance.  Just remember, 31 teams end on a let down in the playoff.

The problem here is probably more than half of the Amherst College football team isn't getting into Amherst if they aren't playing football (or had parents who attended which could also change now). 

So the argument kind of has to start there.  Amherst is an "academic school" but the football roster doesn't really reflect the admissions standards of the school as a whole. Now the MIT football team could fit in well with your argument.  I don't think they mind playing in a conference that allows them to go to the playoffs. 

Also you know there are probably more Nescac/Ivy league grad public school teachers making the same $ as your phys ed teacher?  Not sure where you are getting the PE angle from. 

So the bottom line is you have to ask yourself how much do the colleges want to bend their admissions and financial aid.  Stanford, Vanderbilt and Boston College all decided to bend the admissions a lot and give out 75+ free rides a year.  The Ivy league schools decided to bend the admissions and financial aid a little, but not to the extend the other schools did.  Then you have Amherst and Williams who also bend the admissions and financial aid, but want to stay small.  Then you have MIT who doesn't bend at either end. 

[MapleBBQChicken]

MammothDad – While I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say over the past few weeks, I don't agree here. I think the notion that because we are at elite academic schools we need to shut football down in early November is illogical. If we can successfully balance football, academics, and non-football extracurriculars until then, there's no reason we can't do it the whole semester. Every other NESCAC sport is allowed to play in the NCAA tournament. And it's not like there aren't high-academic programs in the field for football. Johns Hopkins and MIT have been mentioned already, and if we expand geographically, U Chicago and the Claremont/Harvey Mudd team both play in conferences with automatic bids to the NCAA tournament. I don't see why football needs to be treated differently from other NESCAC sports, and I don't see why the NESCAC needs to be treated differently from the rest of the country. Let the boys play.

Thanks.  Are you a former NESCAC player?

Some of the people on here are amazing with their research skills.  Let's see what the Playoff records are for "academic" schools in the D3 Playoffs.

Just hate to see the joy of League Champ be fizzled when the school spends lots of money to travel to a loss of a school where the players are majoring in PE, destined to be HS coaches with a debt load they can never pay off.

But if the kids and the Admins are supportive of it, sure.  Get in the dance.  Just remember, 31 teams end on a let down in the playoff.

I am indeed a former player. I just finished my senior season at Middlebury. I realize the "I" and "we" pronouns probably sounded a little weird if you didn't have that piece of context. Anyway, I think the kids would be all for it. It definitely is something we've joked/complained about in the past. The Admins, not so much. Some of the more experienced posters on here have made the point that football is not necessarily encouraged, but more just tolerated by NESCAC school administrations. I think that's not too far from the truth, and our lack of playoff participation is evidence of that. I think the Admins are far and away the toughest obstacle here.

Personally, I would be willing to end the year on a loss after a conference championship if it meant a chance to win a national championship (however small that chance may be). And as I mentioned before, while that final loss might be at the hands of one of these lower-academic D3 powerhouses, it might be to a good school too. Travel is another obstacle, but my view is that if Middlebury can send its track team to San Diego or tennis teams to Florida (true examples), then it can send its football team down the East Coast or to the Midwest. I also don't think it would be out of the question for a NESCAC team to host an early round game, especially given the quality of the facilities at some of the schools.

[BantChamps]

MammothDad – While I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say over the past few weeks, I don't agree here. I think the notion that because we are at elite academic schools we need to shut football down in early November is illogical. If we can successfully balance football, academics, and non-football extracurriculars until then, there's no reason we can't do it the whole semester. Every other NESCAC sport is allowed to play in the NCAA tournament. And it's not like there aren't high-academic programs in the field for football. Johns Hopkins and MIT have been mentioned already, and if we expand geographically, U Chicago and the Claremont/Harvey Mudd team both play in conferences with automatic bids to the NCAA tournament. I don't see why football needs to be treated differently from other NESCAC sports, and I don't see why the NESCAC needs to be treated differently from the rest of the country. Let the boys play.

Thanks.  Are you a former NESCAC player?

Some of the people on here are amazing with their research skills.  Let's see what the Playoff records are for "academic" schools in the D3 Playoffs.

Just hate to see the joy of League Champ be fizzled when the school spends lots of money to travel to a loss of a school where the players are majoring in PE, destined to be HS coaches with a debt load they can never pay off.

But if the kids and the Admins are supportive of it, sure.  Get in the dance.  Just remember, 31 teams end on a let down in the playoff.

I am indeed a former player. I just finished my senior season at Middlebury. I realize the "I" and "we" pronouns probably sounded a little weird if you didn't have that piece of context. Anyway, I think the kids would be all for it. It definitely is something we've joked/complained about in the past. The Admins, not so much. Some of the more experienced posters on here have made the point that football is not necessarily encouraged, but more just tolerated by NESCAC school administrations. I think that's not too far from the truth, and our lack of playoff participation is evidence of that. I think the Admins are far and away the toughest obstacle here.

Personally, I would be willing to end the year on a loss after a conference championship if it meant a chance to win a national championship (however small that chance may be). And as I mentioned before, while that final loss might be at the hands of one of these lower-academic D3 powerhouses, it might be to a good school too. Travel is another obstacle, but my view is that if Middlebury can send its track team to San Diego or tennis teams to Florida (true examples), then it can send its football team down the East Coast or to the Midwest. I also don't think it would be out of the question for a NESCAC team to host an early round game, especially given the quality of the facilities at some of the schools.

Will echo this. Most of the players want to participate beyond conference schedule. Obviously this is only proof of two teams thinking this out of the rest of the league. I would imagine some of the lower level teams in the league do not care either way. Given that it would most likely take every AD to be on board at the same time for this to even be possible, it's a pipe dream. Maybe down the road there will be enough support all at the same time but for what the circumstances are now it just wont happen.

[HSCTiger74]

MammothDad – While I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say over the past few weeks, I don't agree here. I think the notion that because we are at elite academic schools we need to shut football down in early November is illogical. If we can successfully balance football, academics, and non-football extracurriculars until then, there's no reason we can't do it the whole semester. Every other NESCAC sport is allowed to play in the NCAA tournament. And it's not like there aren't high-academic programs in the field for football. Johns Hopkins and MIT have been mentioned already, and if we expand geographically, U Chicago and the Claremont/Harvey Mudd team both play in conferences with automatic bids to the NCAA tournament. I don't see why football needs to be treated differently from other NESCAC sports, and I don't see why the NESCAC needs to be treated differently from the rest of the country. Let the boys play.

Thanks.  Are you a former NESCAC player?

Some of the people on here are amazing with their research skills.  Let's see what the Playoff records are for "academic" schools in the D3 Playoffs.

Just hate to see the joy of League Champ be fizzled when the school spends lots of money to travel to a loss of a school where the players are majoring in PE, destined to be HS coaches with a debt load they can never pay off.

But if the kids and the Admins are supportive of it, sure.  Get in the dance.  Just remember, 31 teams end on a let down in the playoff.

The problem here is probably more than half of the Amherst College football team isn't getting into Amherst if they aren't playing football (or had parents who attended which could also change now). 

So the argument kind of has to start there.  Amherst is an "academic school" but the football roster doesn't really reflect the admissions standards of the school as a whole. Now the MIT football team could fit in well with your argument.  I don't think they mind playing in a conference that allows them to go to the playoffs. 

Also you know there are probably more Nescac/Ivy league grad public school teachers making the same $ as your phys ed teacher? Not sure where you are getting the PE angle from.

So the bottom line is you have to ask yourself how much do the colleges want to bend their admissions and financial aid.  Stanford, Vanderbilt and Boston College all decided to bend the admissions a lot and give out 75+ free rides a year.  The Ivy league schools decided to bend the admissions and financial aid a little, but not to the extend the other schools did.  Then you have Amherst and Williams who also bend the admissions and financial aid, but want to stay small.  Then you have MIT who doesn't bend at either end.

  That's just a coded way of saying "dumba$$ jocks who would never be allowed to darken the doors of our prestigious scholarly enclave". In all fairness I haven't seen that from other posters on this board, but it fits in with the administration attitudes that MapleBBQChicken and BantChamps referenced previously, and apparently MammothDad agrees.

[NESCACFball24/7]

Donovan Wood out of Middlebury has also entered the portal as a graduate transfer. Have to think that he will garner similar interest as Richardson given he's been a 3 time all-nescac guy to Richardson's singular selection and was much more productive over his 3 years in vt.

[The truth 101]

Donovan Wood out of Middlebury has also entered the portal as a graduate transfer. Have to think that he will garner similar interest as Richardson given he's been a 3 time all-nescac guy to Richardson's singular selection and was much more productive over his 3 years in vt.

In would offer up this perspective in response. I would take into consideration Richardsons larger frame at 6'3 210 which would be more appealing to a recruiter than woods 6'1 205 frame. I would also add that Richardson has two years of eligibility to develop/ play which a coach would seem to be more interested in than Wood's one year. Lastly Wood entered in the portal much later than Richardson so Richardson has had more time to Garner intrest and offers but I do not know if Wood is entering as a mid-year transfer or if he will be enrolling next fall in his new school. We wish good luck to both of them as they embark on their new journey's and do the NESCAC proud.

[The truth 101]

Side note reaction to the rest of the Board's conversation: Would love to see a NESCAC team be able to represent the league in the D3 playoffs, but what would make the league change their mind now if they didn't do so in the past?

[Pat Coleman]

Side note reaction to the rest of the Board's conversation: Would love to see a NESCAC team be able to represent the league in the D3 playoffs, but what would make the league change their mind now if they didn't do so in the past?

I think one of the recent arguments that I've heard is that it's a matter of equity/equal opportunity for football student-athletes at NESCAC schools. In the modern political climate, I could see this gaining traction.