FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Trin9-0]

I don't follow the NESCAC very much but I have to ask this one question. If bates is a team which beat a team which beat a team which were conference co-champions, is it indicative of this being the most random conference in d3 football?

In my opinion it's quite the opposite; I think the NESCAC is wildly predictable (at least over the last 20+ years). Trinity has been pretty much a lock to either win it all or finish in second place, which they've done for 18 of the last 21 seasons (winning the NESCAC championships 11 times and finishing as runner-up 7 times); all while winning 86% of their games over that span.

A second tier of Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury have all taken turns as the most likely challenger. Amherst has 6 titles and 3 runner-up finishes. Williams and Middlebury have won five championships apiece and claim 5 and 3 second place finishes respectively. Their win percentages are 72% for Amherst, 64% for Williams, and 70% for Middlebury.

Wesleyan has recently risen to contender status, but a 57% win percentage with one co-title and a pair of runner-up finishes puts them closer to Colby who has the same hardware but a win percentage of only 43%. The high mark for Tufts is a lone second place finish and a 46% win percentage. Then there's Bates, Bowdoin, and Hamilton who are the clear bottom third with win percentages of 26%, 25% and 23% respectively and just six winning records between the three programs since at least 2000.

Sure, there are the occasional shocking upsets like the Bates win in Middletown on Saturday (more on that in a moment) but overall the league is very predictable on an annual basis and has been for decades.


The Bates win over the Cards is truly a shocking upset (even by recent Wes standards). Sure, as many posters have noted, Wesleyan always seems to lose a head-scratcher. Indeed, unless the frisky kitties go on a run, it's likely to be Wesleyan's fourth loss in the past 6 seasons to a team who finishes with a losing record.

2024 - Loss 24-13 to Bates who is currently 1-2.
2023 - Lost 20-13 at Colby who finished 3-6.
2022 - Lost 28-26 at Bowdoin who finished 3-6.
2018 - Loss 33-29 to Hamilton who finished 3-5.

However, Bates was riding an 11 game losing streak and hadn't scored more than a touchdown in their any of their past six contests. Not to mention the game being in Middletown, where the Cards have played well in recent memory, and the fact that Wes had already disposed of Midd and Tufts. Add in that it was a double digit margin of victory for the Bobcats and I'm left just as dumbfounded as the computer model which predicted Wesleyan would win 40-0.

[Nescacman]

I don't follow the NESCAC very much but I have to ask this one question. If bates is a team which beat a team which beat a team which were conference co-champions, is it indicative of this being the most random conference in d3 football?

In my opinion it's quite the opposite; I think the NESCAC is wildly predictable (at least over the last 20+ years). Trinity has been pretty much a lock to either win it all or finish in second place, which they've done for 18 of the last 21 seasons (winning the NESCAC championships 11 times and finishing as runner-up 7 times); all while winning 86% of their games over that span.

A second tier of Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury have all taken turns as the most likely challenger. Amherst has 6 titles and 3 runner-up finishes. Williams and Middlebury have won five championships apiece and claim 5 and 3 second place finishes respectively. Their win percentages are 72% for Amherst, 64% for Williams, and 70% for Middlebury.

Wesleyan has recently risen to contender status, but a 57% win percentage with one co-title and a pair of runner-up finishes puts them closer to Colby who has the same hardware but a win percentage of only 43%. The high mark for Tufts is a lone second place finish and a 46% win percentage. Then there's Bates, Bowdoin, and Hamilton who are the clear bottom third with win percentages of 26%, 25% and 23% respectively and just six winning records between the three programs since at least 2000.

Sure, there are the occasional shocking upsets like the Bates win in Middletown on Saturday (more on that in a moment) but overall the league is very predictable on an annual basis and has been for decades.


The Bates win over the Cards is truly a shocking upset (even by recent Wes standards). Sure, as many posters have noted, Wesleyan always seems to lose a head-scratcher. Indeed, unless the frisky kitties go on a run, it's likely to be Wesleyan's fourth loss in the past 6 seasons to a team who finishes with a losing record.

2024 - Loss 24-13 to Bates who is currently 1-2.
2023 - Lost 20-13 at Colby who finished 3-6.
2022 - Lost 28-26 at Bowdoin who finished 3-6.
2018 - Loss 33-29 to Hamilton who finished 3-5.

However, Bates was riding an 11 game losing streak and hadn't scored more than a touchdown in their any of their past six contests. Not to mention the game being in Middletown, where the Cards have played well in recent memory, and the fact that Wes had already disposed of Midd and Tufts. Add in that it was a double digit margin of victory for the Bobcats and I'm left just as dumbfounded as the computer model which predicted Wesleyan would win 40-0.

Great post Hs9-o and congratulations on the success of the Hartford State Football Program, really amazing. No doubt something that you all should be very proud of. We're sure many of our fellow Boardsters are very envious of the Bantam's success. We also appreciate how humble the Hartford State universe is. Obviously, this success should not at all be surprising to NESCAC fans given Hartford State's almost exclusive focus on their football program compared to other sports.

The Directors Cup is awarded annually to the top collegiate athletic programs by division and has been awarded since 1995. The "Cup" has been awarded for 27 years (no awards in 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 due to COVID). In those 27 years, Hartford State's highest finish was 34th and in the last 10 years, they have perpetually finished near the bottom of the NESCAC Directors Cup standings and finished dead last in the league as recently as 2021-2022.

Meanwhile, 3 NESCAC schools have won the Directors Cup nationally: Williams an amazing 22 times, Middlebury once, and Tufts once. In last year's national rankings Willams was 2nd, Tufts was 4th, and Middlebury was 6th. The NESCAC has historically been one of, if not the top-rated overall D3 athletic conference in the country, based on these rankings which are an excellent proxy for overall program wide athletic success.

How have our beloved Cards done in the Directors Cup? 42nd last year and they have finished ahead of the Bantams each of the last 7 years. They have finished in the top 50 nationally in the last 6 rankings finishing as high as 14th in 2018-2019. They did finish last in 2014-2015 but that was during a period of transition at Wesleyan.

Let's keep things in perspective. We're sure if other schools in the conference were devoting as many institutional resources towards football as HS, they might have similar success.

[Hogz]

I don't follow the NESCAC very much but I have to ask this one question. If bates is a team which beat a team which beat a team which were conference co-champions, is it indicative of this being the most random conference in d3 football?

In my opinion it's quite the opposite; I think the NESCAC is wildly predictable (at least over the last 20+ years). Trinity has been pretty much a lock to either win it all or finish in second place, which they've done for 18 of the last 21 seasons (winning the NESCAC championships 11 times and finishing as runner-up 7 times); all while winning 86% of their games over that span.

A second tier of Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury have all taken turns as the most likely challenger. Amherst has 6 titles and 3 runner-up finishes. Williams and Middlebury have won five championships apiece and claim 5 and 3 second place finishes respectively. Their win percentages are 72% for Amherst, 64% for Williams, and 70% for Middlebury.

Wesleyan has recently risen to contender status, but a 57% win percentage with one co-title and a pair of runner-up finishes puts them closer to Colby who has the same hardware but a win percentage of only 43%. The high mark for Tufts is a lone second place finish and a 46% win percentage. Then there's Bates, Bowdoin, and Hamilton who are the clear bottom third with win percentages of 26%, 25% and 23% respectively and just six winning records between the three programs since at least 2000.

Sure, there are the occasional shocking upsets like the Bates win in Middletown on Saturday (more on that in a moment) but overall the league is very predictable on an annual basis and has been for decades.


The Bates win over the Cards is truly a shocking upset (even by recent Wes standards). Sure, as many posters have noted, Wesleyan always seems to lose a head-scratcher. Indeed, unless the frisky kitties go on a run, it's likely to be Wesleyan's fourth loss in the past 6 seasons to a team who finishes with a losing record.

2024 - Loss 24-13 to Bates who is currently 1-2.
2023 - Lost 20-13 at Colby who finished 3-6.
2022 - Lost 28-26 at Bowdoin who finished 3-6.
2018 - Loss 33-29 to Hamilton who finished 3-5.

However, Bates was riding an 11 game losing streak and hadn't scored more than a touchdown in their any of their past six contests. Not to mention the game being in Middletown, where the Cards have played well in recent memory, and the fact that Wes had already disposed of Midd and Tufts. Add in that it was a double digit margin of victory for the Bobcats and I'm left just as dumbfounded as the computer model which predicted Wesleyan would win 40-0.

Great post Hs9-o and congratulations on the success of the Hartford State Football Program, really amazing. No doubt something that you all should be very proud of. We're sure many of our fellow Boardsters are very envious of the Bantam's success. We also appreciate how humble the Hartford State universe is. Obviously, this success should not at all be surprising to NESCAC fans given Hartford State's almost exclusive focus on their football program compared to other sports.

The Directors Cup is awarded annually to the top collegiate athletic programs by division and has been awarded since 1995. The "Cup" has been awarded for 27 years (no awards in 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 due to COVID). In those 27 years, Hartford State's highest finish was 34th and in the last 10 years, they have perpetually finished near the bottom of the NESCAC Directors Cup standings and finished dead last in the league as recently as 2021-2022.

Meanwhile, 3 NESCAC schools have won the Directors Cup nationally: Williams an amazing 22 times, Middlebury once, and Tufts once. In last year's national rankings Willams was 2nd, Tufts was 4th, and Middlebury was 6th. The NESCAC has historically been one of, if not the top-rated overall D3 athletic conference in the country, based on these rankings which are an excellent proxy for overall program wide athletic success.

How have our beloved Cards done in the Directors Cup? 42nd last year and they have finished ahead of the Bantams each of the last 7 years. They have finished in the top 50 nationally in the last 6 rankings finishing as high as 14th in 2018-2019. They did finish last in 2014-2015 but that was during a period of transition at Wesleyan.

Let's keep things in perspective. We're sure if other schools in the conference were devoting as many institutional resources towards football as HS, they might have similar success.

Excuses

[NescacNewbie]

So funny how defensive the Trinity guys get when challenged. The entire Nescac football community, potential recruits and future employers all know that Trinity compromises the academic standards that the rest of the programs adhere to. Further, the amount of "over-accepting" every year, followed by extensive "cuts" to their existing roster guys is somewhat disingenuous. They never admit it openly, and it just amazes me that incoming recruits don't see it.
Sure is a great formula to "buy the wins & championships"!

[lumbercat]

I admire and have always been thrilled for the many Trinity commits who I have known from my area around Boston who have played and excelled for the Bantams. Trinity is a great, great program but it has always killed me to see exponentially more kids committing to Trinity striving for that ring who never get on the field or even play 4 years of Football.  Who can fault any kid for striving to be the best and embracing the opportunity.

However this isn't D1 where you recruit everybody you can and let the chips fall where they may.  This is D3 and it's a little different here. I always look at Trinity depth guys who never get on the field at Trinity along with their cuts and I want to tell those kids they would be a starter in other NESCAC programs or at least get on the field a lot more.

No fault on Trinity, they are committed to winning and that's how you do it.  If I'm a QB do I want to carry a clipboard on the sidelines for 4 years in Hartford or maybe even get cut........ or do I want to play.

I think NESCAC recruits need advice and guidance in the process. Strive for excellence and be the best you can be but beware when evaluating Trinity against other NESCAC opportunities it's a very different deal in Hartford for better or for worse.

[Nescacman]

I admire and have always been thrilled for the many Trinity commits who I have known from my area around Boston who have played and excelled for the Bantams. Trinity is a great, great program but it has always killed me to see exponentially more kids committing to Trinity striving for that ring who never get on the field or even play 4 years of Football.  Who can fault any kid for striving to be the best and embracing the opportunity.

However this isn't D1 where you recruit everybody you can and let the chips fall where they may.  This is D3 and it's a little different here. I always look at Trinity depth guys who never get on the field at Trinity along with their cuts and I want to tell those kids they would be a starter in other NESCAC programs or at least get on the field a lot more.

No fault on Trinity, they are committed to winning and that's how you do it.  If I'm a QB do I want to carry a clipboard on the sidelines for 4 years in Hartford or maybe even get cut........ or do I want to play.

I think NESCAC recruits need advice and guidance in the process. Strive for excellence and be the best you can be but beware when evaluating Trinity against other NESCAC opportunities it's a very different deal in Hartford for better or for worse.

Lumber, we agree with you, however, many of those Hartford State recruits wouldn't (or didn't) get into any other NESCAC school. For them, as far as the NESCAC was concerned, Hartford State was the only game in town. For those recruits that had the option, we 100% agree with you. We're not even talking about the life opportunities created for a student-athlete by attending a Williams or Amherst vs. attending Hartford State.

[Scoops]

As much as I believe that Trinity and their fans are thin skinned and soft, I think it's pretty low to try and discredit their success. Yes, Trinity is not as good of a school as the other NESCAC universities. But that's not the football programs fault. And if anything, shame on the rest of the NESCAC schools for NOT being as invested in winning at football as Trinity.


Do I think that Trinity does some things that are underhanded, and frankly cheating? Yes, absolutely. I know for a fact that they do. But I know that other schools in the league do some equally borderline things as well. Trinity just manages to win, so people get bent out of shape about it. It's football. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, you're not trying to win. So cut the "ivory tower" high and mighty schtick.

That said, Trinity is still soft as puppy crap for trying to claim a championship last season.

[BantChamps]

I admire and have always been thrilled for the many Trinity commits who I have known from my area around Boston who have played and excelled for the Bantams. Trinity is a great, great program but it has always killed me to see exponentially more kids committing to Trinity striving for that ring who never get on the field or even play 4 years of Football.  Who can fault any kid for striving to be the best and embracing the opportunity.

However this isn't D1 where you recruit everybody you can and let the chips fall where they may.  This is D3 and it's a little different here. I always look at Trinity depth guys who never get on the field at Trinity along with their cuts and I want to tell those kids they would be a starter in other NESCAC programs or at least get on the field a lot more.

No fault on Trinity, they are committed to winning and that's how you do it.  If I'm a QB do I want to carry a clipboard on the sidelines for 4 years in Hartford or maybe even get cut........ or do I want to play.

I think NESCAC recruits need advice and guidance in the process. Strive for excellence and be the best you can be but beware when evaluating Trinity against other NESCAC opportunities it's a very different deal in Hartford for better or for worse.

Lumber, we agree with you, however, many of those Hartford State recruits wouldn't (or didn't) get into any other NESCAC school. For them, as far as the NESCAC was concerned, Hartford State was the only game in town. For those recruits that had the option, we 100% agree with you. We're not even talking about the life opportunities created for a student-athlete by attending a Williams or Amherst vs. attending Hartford State.

This is an awful take. Most people who come to Trinity are at the same academic level as students who go to other schools in the league. The recruits with 3.9/4.0 GPA's did not choose Trinity because it was their only option. In fact, as a former player, most of my teammates when I played had offers from multiple Nescac's. One in particular I can remember told me he was being heavily recruited by Wes, then changed his mind when he visited the campus. He was all in on Trinity the next day. 

When you ask any of them why they came to Hartford, as most people do when they hear someone had multiple Nescac opportunities, the answer is usually pretty quick - I want to win.

It is really as simple as success breeds success. Of course, the accessibility to Boston and New York is a plus, as well as an outstanding alumni network, but it boils down to most people who are passionate about the game will want to go where the winners are.

Sure, you could go to Amherst, Williams, or Wesleyan and dedicate a huge chunk of time every day throughout the semester, only to get beat up every Saturday. But from what I've heard, most recruits want to see their hard work lead to something more.

[Bantam4life]

I don't follow the NESCAC very much but I have to ask this one question. If bates is a team which beat a team which beat a team which were conference co-champions, is it indicative of this being the most random conference in d3 football?

In my opinion it's quite the opposite; I think the NESCAC is wildly predictable (at least over the last 20+ years). Trinity has been pretty much a lock to either win it all or finish in second place, which they've done for 18 of the last 21 seasons (winning the NESCAC championships 11 times and finishing as runner-up 7 times); all while winning 86% of their games over that span.

A second tier of Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury have all taken turns as the most likely challenger. Amherst has 6 titles and 3 runner-up finishes. Williams and Middlebury have won five championships apiece and claim 5 and 3 second place finishes respectively. Their win percentages are 72% for Amherst, 64% for Williams, and 70% for Middlebury.

Wesleyan has recently risen to contender status, but a 57% win percentage with one co-title and a pair of runner-up finishes puts them closer to Colby who has the same hardware but a win percentage of only 43%. The high mark for Tufts is a lone second place finish and a 46% win percentage. Then there's Bates, Bowdoin, and Hamilton who are the clear bottom third with win percentages of 26%, 25% and 23% respectively and just six winning records between the three programs since at least 2000.

Sure, there are the occasional shocking upsets like the Bates win in Middletown on Saturday (more on that in a moment) but overall the league is very predictable on an annual basis and has been for decades.


The Bates win over the Cards is truly a shocking upset (even by recent Wes standards). Sure, as many posters have noted, Wesleyan always seems to lose a head-scratcher. Indeed, unless the frisky kitties go on a run, it's likely to be Wesleyan's fourth loss in the past 6 seasons to a team who finishes with a losing record.

2024 - Loss 24-13 to Bates who is currently 1-2.
2023 - Lost 20-13 at Colby who finished 3-6.
2022 - Lost 28-26 at Bowdoin who finished 3-6.
2018 - Loss 33-29 to Hamilton who finished 3-5.

However, Bates was riding an 11 game losing streak and hadn't scored more than a touchdown in their any of their past six contests. Not to mention the game being in Middletown, where the Cards have played well in recent memory, and the fact that Wes had already disposed of Midd and Tufts. Add in that it was a double digit margin of victory for the Bobcats and I'm left just as dumbfounded as the computer model which predicted Wesleyan would win 40-0.

Great post Hs9-o and congratulations on the success of the Hartford State Football Program, really amazing. No doubt something that you all should be very proud of. We're sure many of our fellow Boardsters are very envious of the Bantam's success. We also appreciate how humble the Hartford State universe is. Obviously, this success should not at all be surprising to NESCAC fans given Hartford State's almost exclusive focus on their football program compared to other sports.

The Directors Cup is awarded annually to the top collegiate athletic programs by division and has been awarded since 1995. The "Cup" has been awarded for 27 years (no awards in 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 due to COVID). In those 27 years, Hartford State's highest finish was 34th and in the last 10 years, they have perpetually finished near the bottom of the NESCAC Directors Cup standings and finished dead last in the league as recently as 2021-2022.

Meanwhile, 3 NESCAC schools have won the Directors Cup nationally: Williams an amazing 22 times, Middlebury once, and Tufts once. In last year's national rankings Willams was 2nd, Tufts was 4th, and Middlebury was 6th. The NESCAC has historically been one of, if not the top-rated overall D3 athletic conference in the country, based on these rankings which are an excellent proxy for overall program wide athletic success.

How have our beloved Cards done in the Directors Cup? 42nd last year and they have finished ahead of the Bantams each of the last 7 years. They have finished in the top 50 nationally in the last 6 rankings finishing as high as 14th in 2018-2019. They did finish last in 2014-2015 but that was during a period of transition at Wesleyan.

Let's keep things in perspective. We're sure if other schools in the conference were devoting as many institutional resources towards football as HS, they might have similar success.

NM- Not sure how you can say that Trinity strictly focuses on FB when this past year both its Mens Hockey and Basketball teams reached their respective final fours and have had a ton of success amongst other sports in the past 5 years.

[BantChamps]

I also think it is funny how right after Wesleyan drops their annual stinker, discourse on this board immediately shifts to how Trinity has an unfair advantage.

Start pointing your finger the other way and you won't have to make excuses for failure every year.

[Trin9-0]

Aww, you guys I'm disappointed... it usually takes until much later in the season for you to start whining that"Trinity only wins because they cheat". 

I've shared this before but it's worth resurfacing the facts when the baseless allegations start flying. The U.S. Department of Education produces an Equity in Athletics Data Analysis. Feel free to do your own research, but I've listed below the data relevant to NESCAC football program expenses and the percent of the overall athletics expenses that are allocated to football:
                

School	Football Expenses	% of Overall Athletics Expenses
Tufts	$962,949	15.7%
Trinity	$988,685	15.6%
Hamilton	$789,895	15.2%
Amherst	$816,390	13.1%
Bowdoin	$731,065	12.3%
Wesleyan	$718,959	12.1%
Colby	$852,876	11.5%
Bates	$599,090	10.9%
Middlebury	$598,816	10.9%
Williams	$596,176	9.5%

As you can see Trinity is toward the top echelon of schools who invest in their football program, but they're certainly not an outlier. Furthermore, despite the frequent accusations by posters on this board, no one has ever produced any evidence that Trinity uses a larger percentage of their allotted tips for football than other sports. They follow all NESCAC and NCAA rules.

Are there kids who get into Trinity that don't get into other NESCAC schools? Yeah, of course. Does Trinity also frequently win recruiting battles for kids who were accepted to other NESCAC schools? Also, yes. There is a negligible (if any) difference between the overall quality of student on any football rosters in the NESCAC. As for their dismal career prospects; Trinity ranks 6th among NESCAC schools in mid-career median salary at $146,900 annually so you can spare them your pity.

Regarding the claim that kids should chose another NESCAC school so they have a chance to play more. Go for it. We used to joke that all the kids who quit or were cut from our Trinity teams would finish no worse than 5th in the NESCAC if they fielded a team. However, I wonder what someone like Zander Zebrowski would have to say about this. Sure, he sat on the bench for three years behind one of the greatest statistical QBs in league history (and picked up two rings along the way). But now he's the runaway favorite for OPY leading the only undefeated team in the league. Would he have been happier as a starter the last three seasons going 6-21 for Bates? Maybe... but I doubt it.

Finally, I applaud the NESCAC for the strong showing of its member schools in the Director's Cup standings. However, having a nationally ranked field hockey team, or swimming & diving program, or women's golf team, etc. is irrelevant to a NESCAC football board. I say this one year after Trinity had both it's men's basketball team in the Final Four and men's hockey team in the National Championship game. Now, would anyone like to comment on the games or just more whining about big bad Trinity?

I personally feel this weekend's game will be the biggest challenge for the Bants all season. Tufts has athletes that can match Trinity and the game is in Medford where each of the past four match-ups have been decided by a touchdown or less:

2022: Trinity 26 - Tufts 23
2019: Tufts 14 - Trinity 8
2017: Trinity 23 - Tufts 16
2015: Trinity 34 - Tufts 27

Here's how ESPN's Bill Connelly SP+ computer projections (which now has Trinity as a Top 25 ranked school) see things shaking out in the NESCAC this week:

Colby 20.5, Bates 13.9
Middlebury 19.7, Amherst 14.6
Trinity 28.6, Tufts 12.9
Wesleyan 34.2, Hamilton 6.1
Williams 31.3, Bowdoin 15.5

[Pat Coleman]

Do I think that Trinity does some things that are underhanded, and frankly cheating? Yes, absolutely. I know for a fact that they do.

Hey, just FYI -- that's an allegation you should provide proof for if you want to remain within the board's Terms of Service.

[nescac1]

Please, please, anything but this Trinity discussion. There is simply no chance that ANYTHING that can be said about Trinity's football program that doesn't relate to actual players on the field has not already been said many, many, many times already.  For a "football" board it's amazing how devoid of actual discussion of football this place is.

So on a football note, Nolan O'Brien has to be the fastest player in the league.  Yeah, Williams' pass coverage was less than stellar, but looking at these highlights the dude is just a flat burner - the guys he is roasting in open space are not slow.  Not sure if he was always like this or has taken a leap this season, but dang, he is a tough cover.  Trinity is (like last year) using him at PR, KR, and receiver, and once he gets into space, he's a threat to break one every time:

https://x.com/FrankRossi/status/1840111551011008543

https://x.com/FrankRossi/status/1840092159157882942

https://x.com/FrankRossi/status/1840111551011008543 

Very, very hard to contain both O'Brien and Clapp, you have to pick your poison.  And DiNapoli very tough too, really shifty runner.   

[GroundandPound]

Nescac1, isn't Trinity's QB a very good runner as well?  Plenty of very good playmakers.

[GroundandPound]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJityt6doBc
Patrick Jamin at 2:11 on this video shows some exceptional shiftiness, in my opinion.