FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Knightstalker]

We would rather have a conference of mediocre teams rather than a conference with two or three powerful teams. 

Why do their rules for basketball seem different than the rules for football?  Is it because many people in the administration of the schools consider football a Neanderthal sport and would eliminate it in a heartbeat if they knew that the Alumnae (never can remember which is appropriate for what circumstance) would accept it and not pull major dollars away from the schools out of anger for dropping football?

[frank uible]

Don't need a football conference at all. No recruiting, admission, scheduling or squad-size rules. Just schedule teams. If to a sufficient degree a college doesn't like what a potential opponent is doing on the field, at the admissions office or otherwise, then don't schedule it - schedule another opponent.  The schedule can be as long or as short as a college likes. The games can be played when and where the participants agree. The squad size can be what the college likes. The college's admissions practices can be what the college likes. Flexibility, but don't impose one college's standards on another. That is how it worked well for the current NESCAC schools for ages before the advent of NESCAC.

[Trin9-0]

I 100% believe their is a NESCAC bias against football. They ban football from the NCAA playoffs, they refuse to allow the schools the opportunity to even play all the teams in the conference (a move that will come back to bite them this year if Trinity and Colby run the table). As mentioned earlier, until recently they even posted the standings in ALPHABETICAL order! As if the "dumb football players" wouldn't notice and they'll be happy just playing the games like a bunch of 8 year olds playing flag football.

I can just see the league administrators cheering... "You're all winners!"

I don't know why NESCAC schools even keep score at all! Especially when the rules are changed every few years to prevent a team from winning too many games... Heaven forbid someone wins or loses more than 4 games, that would be simply ungentlemanly.

If football wasn't such a high profile sport, that generated money for the schools it would have been eliminated long ago.

I love the NESCAC. I think it is a great league with great athletics and even better academics. However, it's insistence that every athletic team be equal is absurd. Winning and losing can both be learning experiences. Isn't learning what participating in college athletics is supposed to be about?

[Knightstalker]

Just make it like t-ball and bitty soccer, (don't get me started on these two) lets not keep score, nobody loses, Everybody Wins!  Now lets all go get ice cream, yay!   

[dirtybirds8-0]

I like ice cream, sounds great to me. 

[speedy]

I 100% believe their is a NESCAC bias against football. They ban football from the NCAA playoffs, they refuse to allow the schools the opportunity to even play all the teams in the conference (a move that will come back to bite them this year if Trinity and Colby run the table). As mentioned earlier, until recently they even posted the standings in ALPHABETICAL order! As if the "dumb football players" wouldn't notice and they'll be happy just playing the games like a bunch of 8 year olds playing flag football.
. . .

Remember the study that was done in 2001 by Schuman and Bowen for the Mellon Foundation of academic performance and admissions standards for the high-profile sports (football, ice hockey, and basketball? The data showed that recruited football players have lower SATs and lower GPAs in comparision to all other athletes and students at the NESCAC schools. The data wasn't broken down by school but it played a role in the new limits on the number of recruited athletes.

[formerbant10]

Speedy, I read that book as part of an Independent Study with one of the top philosophy professors at Trinity.  This is a guy who played basketball at Princeton and still to this day swears that he learned more at Princeton while he was on the court than in the classroom.  This was back when the Ivy champion was the only one allowed to play post-season and they ended up in the Sweet 16.  He hates this book.  They completely skewed the data to make it look like the "high profile" athletes couldn't hold their own in the classroom.  What the two geeks who wrote the book failed to tell you was that their graphs were also manipulated to make the difference b/t athletes and non-athletes look greater than it actually was.  Average GPA of non-athletes 3.3....average GPA for athletes 3.1.  So let's not really stress out about the "lower" GPA's I don't think anyone should be complaining about getting above a "B" at one of these fine institutions.  We don't need you skewing the data as well, one time is enough.

[speedy]

Speedy, I read that book as part of an Independent Study with one of the top philosophy professors at Trinity.  This is a guy who played basketball at Princeton and still to this day swears that he learned more at Princeton while he was on the court than in the classroom.  This was back when the Ivy champion was the only one allowed to play post-season and they ended up in the Sweet 16.  He hates this book.  They completely skewed the data to make it look like the "high profile" athletes couldn't hold their own in the classroom.  What the two geeks who wrote the book failed to tell you was that their graphs were also manipulated to make the difference b/t athletes and non-athletes look greater than it actually was.  Average GPA of non-athletes 3.3....average GPA for athletes 3.1.  So let's not really stress out about the "lower" GPA's I don't think anyone should be complaining about getting above a "B" at one of these fine institutions.  We don't need you skewing the data as well, one time is enough.

There's a lot about that study that was bogus but the SATs were definitely lower for "recruited" football players by an average of 142 points. Hockey players' SAT scores were 110 points lower and basketball players' SAT scores were 102 lower.

[formerbant10]

Are you really going to complain about the difference between a 1400 and a 1298........get real.  I played hoops at Trinity and would have gotten in on my own.  Don't for a second think that those economic geeks who have never played a single sport in their life know anything about sports.  They are an embarassment to the NESCAC.  The book should never have been written.

[Longtooth]

GOOD lUCK TO WILLIAMS!

[Jonny Utah]

everyone really needs to calm down in here.  No one is cheating, no one is getting thrown out of the league, administrators arent having meetings to change the rules so trinity cant win.  Its just minor talk that everyone is getting upset about.  There are a few jelous posters in here of Trinitys success, and trinity alum and fans dont have to defend their program.

The only thing Im kind of upset about as an ouside nescac fan is that the league champ looks like it was decided in week 2 and that some of these games wont really have an impact on the final outcome...and that the top two teams in the league dont play each other, thats kind of dissapointing.

I do have a minor suggestion.  How about the top team in the league last year, (trinity) doesnt play the last place team in the league last year, (hamilton) that way the two top teams the next year will play 99% of the time.  Of course 9 games would be an easy solution as well

[saul]

while folks are getting all upset and firing off ad hominem attacks at me for being elistist or whatever, you're failing to grasp the message which is irrefutable: the trinity football program has the lowest academic standards of any nescac football program and this serves as the foundation for trinity's recent success in football.  That's a fact, born out by statistics self-reported by trinity. facts. period . end of discusion. move on.  i feel your insecurity, your frustations and yes, your pain over the existence of these facts but pillorying someone for merely laying them at your feet only makes you look pathetic. if i was affiliated with an institution with the lowest academic ranking in nesacc, i'd share those feelings in spades as well. the embarassment, the shame in knowing that each of your opponents knows they may be losing to you, but at least are adhering to a higher standard, a higher road, must engender a shame and guilt that takes a heavy toll, one not easliy assuaged by a slew of lop-sided victories. deep down you know that you are cutting corners and no amount of harranging and self-denial can right this. 

i feel sorry--believe me, no jealousy, jonny-- for trinity because it has been exploited by a snake-oil salesman ( priore) looking to pad his resume at the expense of a institution with a leadership vacuum. as soon as its convenient, priore will indeed fly the coop for the next best situation. sadly, it's a well-worn short cut to success for folks of Priore's ilk-- and he's the only one reaping the benefits. pick the school w/ the lowest academic standards in the league, set -up shop w/ a recruiting advantage enjoyed by no others in the league and coast to the top. penn, as been pointed out , in the past has been such a case in point. being able to take in kids of bulk, in bulk that no other league school will accept makes for a easy road to the top and this is what has happened at trinity. period. end of discussion.

now let me show you some love and tell you what I think trinity's path should be. i believe a new and improved academic standing for trinity benefits not only trinity, but all of nescac. trinity's low academic ranking effects all of its members merely by association. hey, if there's a stench coming from your neighbor's house, you have it checked out, right?. as a member of nescac, the primacy of academics and its advancement is, in effect,  your oath. now, if trinity could bring its academic standards more in line with the rest of nescac, it's academic reputation would improve, the quality of its faculty would rise and its meager endowment would rise as well. once its academic reputation was enhanced, then and only then, it could go about the task of buildings its football program in a controlled, responsible manner. i don't know what the deal w/ all the recent changes in presidents is about but clearly there can't be consensus about trinity's direction if that's happening. what's needed is a president with the solid backing of trustees to raise academic standards at trinity. if you, trinity football fans, truly love your school you'll realize that this course will be in both you, your kids, and trinity's best interests.

now let me tell you guys that instead of all this wasted energy over posts about having playoffs or a nine game schedule you should build a consensus about one/both of the suggestions and develop a resolution. post it on a separate website,  if pat won't allow it here, and then have it e-signed and sent to all the nescac presidents.  get that guy who drives to scrimmages in maine to set up a stand at games and have a hard copy signed by folks. you may have to find reps for each school who can circulate word to former teammates and then have someone on campus now get present football members to sign off. prior to sending it to the presidents get your school's newspaper to present it to the student body as a referendum. trust me, most papers love flash points like this. utimately, how you craft the hard copy and e-copy are up to you but get something together that can be presented to the presidents.  it may also define presidents/ colleges positions; you'll also see who stands where and  who stonewalls. in the end the mystery shrouding the presidents reasoning for the status quo may be revealed. it may well change nothing-- and actually, I hope it doesn't--- but in the end you can say you tried and then we can go beyond the same tired topics we hash over all the time.  time for some of you big trin talkers to take some initiative and actually do something, see if all your arguements have any cred at all, bro.  i'm betting that you just continue to sit on your butts because, well, that's just you.

Off to pratt to watch the jeffs beat midd.

[saul]

while folks are getting all upset and firing off ad hominem attacks at me for being elistist or whatever, you're failing to grasp the message which is irrefutable: the trinity football program has the lowest academic standards of any nescac football program and this serves as the foundation for trinity's recent success in football.  That's a fact, born out by statistics self-reported by trinity. facts. period . end of discusion. move on.  i feel your insecurity, your frustations and yes, your pain over the existence of these facts but pillorying someone for merely laying them at your feet only makes you look pathetic. if i was affiliated with an institution with the lowest academic ranking in nesacc, i'd share those feelings in spades as well. the embarassment, the shame in knowing that each of your opponents knows they may be losing to you, but at least are adhering to a higher standard, a higher road, must engender a shame and guilt that takes a heavy toll, one not easliy assuaged by a slew of lop-sided victories. deep down you know that you are cutting corners and no amount of harranging and self-denial can right this. 

i feel sorry--believe me, no jealousy, jonny-- for trinity because it has been exploited by a snake-oil salesman ( priore) looking to pad his resume at the expense of a institution with a leadership vacuum. as soon as its convenient, priore will indeed fly the coop for the next best situation. sadly, it's a well-worn short cut to success for folks of Priore's ilk-- and he's the only one reaping the benefits. pick the school w/ the lowest academic standards in the league, set -up shop w/ a recruiting advantage enjoyed by no others in the league and coast to the top. penn, as been pointed out , in the past has been such a case in point. being able to take in kids of bulk, in bulk that no other league school will accept makes for a easy road to the top and this is what has happened at trinity. period. end of discussion.

now let me show you some love and tell you what I think trinity's path should be. i believe a new and improved academic standing for trinity benefits not only trinity, but all of nescac. trinity's low academic ranking effects all of its members merely by association. hey, if there's a stench coming from your neighbor's house, you have it checked out, right?. as a member of nescac, the primacy of academics and its advancement is, in effect,  your oath. now, if trinity could bring its academic standards more in line with the rest of nescac, it's academic reputation would improve, the quality of its faculty would rise and its meager endowment would rise as well. once its academic reputation was enhanced, then and only then, it could go about the task of buildings its football program in a controlled, responsible manner. i don't know what the deal w/ all the recent changes in presidents is about but clearly there can't be consensus about trinity's direction if that's happening. what's needed is a president with the solid backing of trustees to raise academic standards at trinity. if you, trinity football fans, truly love your school you'll realize that this course will be in both you, your kids, and trinity's best interests.

now let me tell you guys that instead of all this wasted energy over posts about having playoffs or a nine game schedule you should build a consensus about one/both of the suggestions and develop a resolution. post it on a separate website,  if pat won't allow it here, and then have it e-signed and sent to all the nescac presidents.  get that guy who drives to scrimmages in maine to set up a stand at games and have a hard copy signed by folks. you may have to find reps for each school who can circulate word to former teammates and then have someone on campus now get present football members to sign off. prior to sending it to the presidents get your school's newspaper to present it to the student body as a referendum. trust me, most papers love flash points like this. utimately, how you craft the hard copy and e-copy are up to you but get something together that can be presented to the presidents.  it may also define presidents/ colleges positions; you'll also see who stands where and  who stonewalls. in the end the mystery shrouding the presidents reasoning for the status quo may be revealed. it may well change nothing-- and actually, I hope it doesn't--- but in the end you can say you tried and then we can go beyond the same tired topics we hash over all the time.  time for some of you big trin talkers to take some initiative and actually do something, see if all your arguements have any cred at all, bro.  i'm betting that you just continue to sit on your butts because, well, that's just you.

Off to pratt to watch the jeffs beat midd.

[bant551]

Hmmm, which is worse:
(1) Ad Hominem attacks; or
(2) Baseless allegations without even a scintilla of evidence.

Yes, we all know that Trinity is ranked lower than the other NESCAC schools; it has been for a long time.  That being said, its still a great school.  The rankings of the NESCAC schools has pretty much remained stagnant, through periods in which Williams steamrolled the league, and throughout the present period, in which Trinity is doing the same.

Typically, I think, coaching has been the main difference.  Williams and Amherst, and to a lesser extent, some of the other NESCAC schools, have always gotten kids who should be playing at a higher level (i.e., the Ivy League), wanted a great education, but wanted to play two sports.  Along the same lines, the top few schools in the NESCAC have also always gotten "Ivy rejects"; kids who were a hair below Ivy-League quality football players, but whose talents didn't justify the Ivy League Schools' pulling of the strings, but whose level of play justified such string-pulling at the higher NESCAC schools (low level of Division 3).

Williams and Amherst have always had that advantage.  Conversely, the schools at the lower end of the rankings spectrum in the NESCAC have had the competitive advantage of having the ability to get kids in who are smart and have good SATs, but who wouldn't be able to get into Williams or Amherst.

Its no secret that Williams and Amherst have almost always been the powers in the NESCAC.  The reason?  I'd have to say the reason is that THEY THEMSELVES have significant recruiting advantages as well.  Trinity and some of the other schools (Tufts and Colby, for example, sometimes Weseleyan) have traditionally been average, with the occasional great year when they have the right mix of players.

Bottom line: the NESCAC and its recruiting standards are the same as they have always been.  The only difference is that, at the present time, Trinity is doing an amazing job of recruiting and coaching.  There is nothing to be ashamed of.  You have no basis for your allegations.

Yes, its nice to live in a fantasy world where your team is always at the top.  Unfortunately - and I think this will be a nice life lesson for you - things don't always work out the way you want them to.  Rather than blame others without a factual basis, move on and try and bring your school back to its former glory.

Again, there is NOTHING behind your posts EXCEPT the following:

"Williams and Amherst are ALLOWED to be dominant.  If ANY of the schools which (GASP) are ranked lower than Williams or Amherst has a period of greatness that rivals that of the afore-mentioned schools, we need to think of a reason to slander that success, even if our rationale is baseless and shameful".

[Jonny Utah]

saul, you wont see any of what you want because there simply is not enough interest.  About .3 percent of highschool students looking at going to nescac schools know that Trinitys football team has a winning streak.  Its not that big of a deal and you wont see any petitions at scrimmages in Maine or any other such nonsense.  Now, you might see some high profile transfers being topics of future conversations but thats about it.

Now to another topic.  Amherst has long been known to lower average sats hundreds of points for springfield area athletes that end up being great football players.  In fact, since Amherst has some of the most stringent admissions policies in the world, they have to really sacrifice their academic integrity to get football players in the school.  Amherst still gets 15 football players WAY below the amherst admission standard as the SAT is a huge factor in amherst admissions.  The SAT does not have to be submitted at several nescac schools.  It is amherst that should be ashmaed of themselves if you want to look at it that way.

Coaches going to schools with low academic standards to the rest of the conference does not work.  You might as well call farhley and ostendarp puppets of lowered policies of the 1980s/1990 then.  That would be irresponsible and stupid