FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Trin9-0]

On Trin 8-0's question regarding who Williams' biggest rival is - from the players perspective (at least during 1987-1990) we always looked to Trinity as the biggest rivalry. Amherst was a big rivalry but more for the students.

I must say that is a little suprising, but it is refreshing to know that (despite what Williams-Amherst administrators and the student body might try to promote as the rivalry) as far as the players are concerned the team that poses the biggest challenge is the game that means the most.

One of the best quotes from that documentary was from Jeff Devaney, Trinity's current D-coordinator and all NESCAC DB for the Bantams in the early '90s. He said something to the effect that those Trinity & Williams teams would have prefered to play all 8 games against each other and go 4-4 than to go 8-0 or 7-1 beating up on the poorer teams in the league.

dirty: Blair has been double and even triple teamed this year. Also, teams have been running away from him, and rolling-out away from him. It is remarkable that he has been able to still make the number of plays he has so far this year.

[Ephs2004]

Being a recent player/grad, I can honestly say that Amherst was the biggest rival in my playing time.  It's probably a due to a combo of the history and the fact that both teams were competing for the top spot most of the time.  The trinity game was big during my final two seasons, mainly because we knew we were, again, competing for the top spot.  The history and the homecoming/alumni interest in the Amherst game is like nothing else though.
Regarding the streak, like someone said, they're made to be broken.  Bottom line is that Trinity won the game, Williams lost.  No excuses.  That being said, It would've been nicer to see the streak passed onto a team that embodies the NESCAC, ie Amherst or Midd.
I've periodically checked this site out for the last 4 years, starting when I was still playing.  Its cool to see that people have a genuine interest in the league.  So keep up the good work. 

[frank uible]

During recent years the mood on the Williams practice field is that the Amherst game is THE game.

[Ephs1991]

Ephs 2004,

I hate to publicly disagree with you being a fellow Eph, but stuff the comment about how the streak should have gone to a team who "embodies the NESCAC".  We used to hear the same kinds of crap during the late 80's/early 90's from the other teams in the league but just as often from the Williams students and administration who were jealous of our success and attention who were frankly too arrogant to admit that hard work and team spirit are worth something.

It seems Trinity's hard work, off season dedication and good coaching have paid off, just like Williams' did in years past.   Cut the crap about Trinity's academics.  If you want to beat them, work harder and stop whining, besides, there is nothing better than being in a program that pulls itself up with hard work and dedication and gets a few upsets along the way - much like Dave Caputi is doing at Bowdoin right now. Wouldn't you want to be the ones to beat Trinity while they are a powerhouse instead of complaining about how you can't compete with them?   

[bant551]

Do you have to be a snob in order to "embody the NESCAC?"  Does that sentance even make sense?

Here are the top three definitions of "embody" that are listed on dictionary.com:

(1) To give a bodily form to; incarnate.
(2) To represent in bodily or material form: "As John Adams embodied the old style, Andrew Jackson embodied the new" (Richard Hofstadter).
(3) To make part of a system or whole; incorporate: laws that embody a people's values.

Trinity is part of the NESCAC genious.  It would be purely tautological to point out the obvious: since Trinity is PART OF THE NESCAC, it is therefore conceptually impossible for Trinity not to "embody" the NESCAC.

Why don't you just come out and say that it would be nice if a "better" school won the league you snob?

[Ephs2004]

Sweet research, bro.  And yea, I'll say, I will totally say that it would have been nicer if a better school took the streak.  And I wasn't complaining.  I said, "...bottom line, Trinity won, williams lost, no excuses."  I think the Trinity kids have definitely worked hard and definitely deserve it.  Iwasn't taking anything from them or their coaches and the recruiting excuse is BS, i agree.  I was just saying that I think Trinity sucks as a school (academically, reputation, campus, locale, etc.) and it would've been cooler had the streak passed onto better school, more historic, more respected.  There, I'm a snob.  Do something.

[bant551]

Sweet research, bro.  And yea, I'll say, I will totally say that it would have been nicer if a better school took the streak.  And I wasn't complaining.  I said, "...bottom line, Trinity won, williams lost, no excuses."  I think the Trinity kids have definitely worked hard and definitely deserve it.  Iwasn't taking anything from them or their coaches and the recruiting excuse is BS, i agree.  I was just saying that I think Trinity sucks as a school (academically, reputation, campus, locale, etc.) and it would've been cooler had the streak passed onto better school, more historic, more respected.  There, I'm a snob.  Do something.

Well its nice that you qualified your insults by saying that Trinity athletes work hard and deserve it, and that there are no excuses for losing. 

I'll serve you on a point-by-point basis:
(1) If you think TRINITY sucks academcially, you are going to have a horrendous time dealing with the vast majority of Americans who have graduated from college, because, as I think you know, Trinity is better than the vast majority of colleges in the country.  I only hope that you save your direct insults for anonymous message boards.  I cannot stress enough how glad I am that I didn't go to Williams based on what I know about the way they see the world.  Would I have that kind of attitude if I went there?
(2) As for the reputation of Trinity, all of the arguments made in point (1) are relevant.
(3) Campus: Trinity's campus is okay in my opinion.  I never really thought about it too much and I'm not sure why that matters.  It is a very small campus and that never bothered me... are you that desparate to disparage Trinity that you stoop to the level of making fun of their campus?!?!?!? and
(4) Call me biased because I've always lived in Metropolitan areas, but the locale of Williams is one the college's WORST traits.  My brother went there and I've visited a bunch of times because I had friends who played Williams football.  I always liked visiting, because I did appreciate open spaces and all, but they were pretty sick of it.  There are two bars, two crappy bars, that are accessible to Williams students.  And there is no fraternity life, so that is about the extent of what there is to do there (aside from "registered" keg parties where everyone is ID'ed). 

Perhaps the snobbiness comes from the fact that (1) you don't really enjoy your time at Williams so failures on the athletic field compound your frustration; and (2) the attitude you learned at Williams makes the very thought of losing to a school ranked below you something that keeps you up at night.

[Trin9-0]

I'm not suprised at all that someone who actually played for a championship team at Williams in early '90s has a more sensible view of what makes a championship NESCAC team. It's reassuring to know that those Williams players had to hear the same nonsense.

I couldn't agree with you more Ephs1991, Trinity has won the same way that every other successful team has won in any sport at any level... by combining talent with hard work and preparation.

The reason the Bantams will lose one of these days is because eventually a coach will sell enough recruits on the idea of "Why would you want to go to Trinity when you could beat Trinity?" When they can get those athletes and instill in them the mentality to work hard in and out of season a new NESCAC power will emerge. As someone much smarter than myself once said, "Winning is simple, but it isn't easy".

Bant551: You use some pretty big words for a dumb Trinity footall player. Are you sure you didn't go to Williams after all.  

Ephs2004: To say that Trinity sucks as a school is quite an exageration. Do you really belive that Williamstown is a better location than Hartford? Tell me, where do you do your internships... Is it the metropolis' of Braytonville or Sweets Corner? I also think you'd be hard-pressed to find a student who prefered the campus life of Williams to Trinity. Finally, since when did a streak have to be "cool"? I always thought it should go to whoever wins the most games.

[dirtybirds8-0]

I have really enjoyed reading the past couple posts, and have formulated a pretty good assessment of the issues.  Trin8-0 is pretty close in his understanding of how this entire posting board works.  Current and semi-current players from the rest of the NESCAC are upset and dare I say "jealous" of the sucess that Trinity has had in recent years.  They have continually tried to bash the academic and geographical placement of Trinity, in an attempt to make themselves feel better.  However, past players who have experienced similar sucess as Trinity, know that all the bashing is childish and ignorant.  Thank you for putting these posts in their proper light....I think we should call the Dirty Birds from the South (Atlanta Falcons) and challenge them to play the Dirty Birds of the North, to see who really runs the national "COOP".  Prediction....Bants 21- Falcons 10....Vick cant out run the D. 

[saul]

it's easy to be a snob when you're talking about trinity. it has the lowest academic standards of any other nescac school, so if anybody from another league school starts talking about trinity, well they're talking about an academic inferior. trinity has defined itself as such, not the other way around. trinity then componds this shame and disgrace by leveraging their low admissions standards to gain an insurmountable advantage on the football field. there's no jealousy involved here.  do some of the trin posters  think people around the league are upset about not going to the worst school in the league? it just never gets old throwing trinity under the bus, mostly because of all the sensitive, wounded trin posters on this site who can't deal with the fact that their school is the pits of nescac academically. but when trinity uses this situation as a competitive advantage on the football field they do indeed violate the tenents that define and embody nescac. one of the things that distinguishes nescac from the rest of d3 leagues is that its members all uphold the pursuit of academic excellence as their highest goal. hell, it's even written in the athletic league's mission statement. take a look:

The New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC), founded in 1971, consists of eleven highly selective liberal arts colleges. Its members are committed first and foremost to academic excellenceThe New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC), founded in 1971, consists of eleven highly selective liberal arts colleges. Its members are committed first and foremost to academic excellence".....and sports are along for the ride.

now somebody has to be last, but when an institution is consistently last--someone told me trinity was the weakest sistah from the git go in ' 71-- then they fail to uphold the values of the league. long ago union was asked to leave the league, ostensibly for hockey recruiting violations. but the real reasons behind this parting of the ways, according to some here, was the erosion of union's academic standards -- that, and union was pursuing d1 hockey. in short, as the euphemism goes "it was headed in a different direction" ( read: south ). now that sounds a lot like trinity: years in the cellar academically but lacking the direction, motivation or focus to improve its digraceful, shameful legacy.

nobody here is bashing bowdoin for their recent success on the gridiron, certainly not me. that's because it has its priorities straight: academics first, football somewhere behind that. it builds its program with good students, students who are students first. the football program improves and the school's ranking isn't in the nescac cellar. no problem, they're a legitimate nescac school with the right priorities. i not just saying that, they've define themselves as such. folks around nescac roundly hammer trinity because they see a school obsessed with football while their academic rep reeks. and, within nescac, trinity is virtually in a league by itself academically.  i use three hardfast criteria to make that case:

- median sat scores - strike 1  ( lower than any other nescac school)
- Top 100 Schools for selectivity- strike 2 ( lowest in nescac... and not even on the list )
- NESCAC comprehensive rankings- strike 3 ( includes student satisfaction, social life )

i cite these again and again because this stuff is all self-reported, has a history and paints the  institution's hapless profile in context and beyond-- on a national scale.

now let's talk about that disgrace, the turd in the punchbowl, the newark of nescac, that utter and complete embarrassment of a hovel in hartford: Trinity.
trinity, academically speaking, has fouled its own nest and now is forced to lay in its own filth. but the stench that rises from the nescac cellar is one that nauseates its fellow true and principled members. as with all spring cleaning trash, dross and filth must be removed. now is the time for action, now is the time for corrective measures and my own modest proposal: trinity must clean up its act or be forced to leave nescac. trinity taints all other nescac members by association alone because by nescac standards, trinity is consistently last. oh, the shame it brings to us all! now if a student is at the bottom his class he is told to improve or withdraw; if a football player can't keep up, he's cut from the team. nescac should do no less. i say give trinity a probation period ( ~ 3yrs ) to improve it's act or send it packing. it's in trinity's best interests and it rests in ours as well. my dogs, i say it's time trinity clean itself up or be shown the door... it's really beginning to smell.

[bant551]

Saul, good to see you posting again after you were exposed as being a fraud who used numerous different names to post on the same topics.

Finally we hear about some statistics.  Unfortunately, we already knew that Trinity was the lowest-ranked NESCAC school.  And that certainly isn't anything to be ashamed of, unless, that is, you are such a snob that you look down at every single college and university in the country that is not as elite as Williams and Amherst.

Now, I wasn't asking you for obvious statistics that everyone already knew, and essentially stipulated on this message board (i.e., Trinity is still ranked highly nation-wide, but is the lowest-ranked school in the NESCAC - the necessary inference being that they have the lowest SAT average for incoming freshmen in the league).  So, you see, you have provided nothing.

What WOULD be relevant would be some statistic that is indicative of recruiting practices and academic standards being lowered at Trinity in recent years.  Its a shame that I must keep reiterating this to such a high-brow snob as yourself: bald, conclusory allegations, unsupported by REVELANT statistics or facts, are simply not enough to win an argument in the real world.

So, aside from pointing out the obvious (that the lowest-ranked school in the NESCAC has the lowest academic standards), you have once again provided nothing.  And your word is completely useless, as you have proven to be a snake and have posted under numerous names.  Even though some of us went to Trinity, we can recognize a BS attempt to use statistics in order to make a frivolous attempt at supporting a failed argument - your original argument being that improprieties have taken place at Trinity - and that said improprieties are the reason for Trinity's recent success.

Didn't you ever learn how to make a rational argument at your elite liberal arts college?  Or do they teach you to try and create false support for your arguments out of thin air by creating numerous message-board names, and to use irrelevant statistics (that only a moron would think supported your original argument about standards having changed at Trinity) in an attempt to support failed arguments?  Perhaps you have a future in politics? 

[Knightstalker]

kULD you all use lidle wurds so's us egknorent peeple that dint go to amursts or wilyums can unnerstan wat youse is yakking on abouts.  Weins lowlie peeples ain;t so kwik on unnerstanin inglesh.

[Knightstalker]

Saul, why don't you come on down to Newark or Jersey City.  I know some guys that didn't even finish ninth grade that you obviously think you are better than who will convince you to give them all your money, your car and let them take your momma and sister out for a little fun.  You really need to get a new writer,  your act is getting very old and tired.  How about giving people some hard facts rather than tired rumours and innuendo.

[Ephs]

On Trin 8-0's question regarding who Williams' biggest rival is - from the players perspective (at least during 1987-1990) we always looked to Trinity as the biggest rivalry.  Amherst was a big rivalry but more for the students.

'91: The problem was Amherst stunk in the late 80's/early 90's. I mean, they weren't even competitive. I'm sure you'd agree that had a negative impact on the rivalry. Meanwhile, Trinity was as good as Williams - a powerhouse. It made for some great games (a few of which i saw as a kid). When Amherst made a comeback in the mid-90's, so did the rivalry and its been strong ever since, while Trinity declined a little. But it still carried over to the teams I was on. We never took Trinity lightly, and they always played tough. Rilvary-wise, i'd say they were second to Amherst for us.

[bant551]

I was always under the impression that Amherst and Williams were bigger rivals as well.

Hey, I was thinking about what Saul said and I think he is right.  How do you guys think Jay Fiedler (Dartmouth) tolerates playing with people who went to State Universities, and thereby have less value as human beings?

Saul, how do you tolerate the fact that, in the real world and on equal footing, there are thousands of Trinity alums that are going to achieve more success in their lives than you will, both financially and otherwise?  Does that eat at you inside?  How do you sleep at night knowing that not only are there Trinity graduates who will be more successful than you, but people who went to community colleges and state universities will achieve more than you will in this world?

Do you realize how you sound?  And this is coming from a guy with a Bob Marley avatar!