FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Knightstalker]

Standardized test scores should only be a small factor in acceptance to a college in my opinion.  My one brother had poor SAT's because he is one of those types that always got uptight about tests, but would ace pop quizzes and test all the time.  He was a better student than my other brother and I because he had to work to remember things and learn.  My other brother and I always learned quickly and retained the info, our problem was we felt like we were wasting our time relearning things or having to take time to explain them to everyone.

My point is I am sure any reasonably intelligent HS graduate could probably succeed in any college or university if they were motivated, paid attention and did their work.  I think that many top schools it is not what you know but who your family knows and the size of their charitable contributions. 

[Jonny Utah]

Here's a 2002 article from the Chronicle of Higher Education giving some background to the situation at Williams (specifically) and the NESCAC in general.

http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i26/26a03701.htm

Thats a good article, this was the quote that I was looking for:

"Williams, Amherst, and Wesleyan all agreed to cut their tips to 66 per year. For Williams, this decreased the number of recruits by six, from 72. Bowdoin also has announced plans to reduce athlete admissions, without being so specific."

[Trin9-0]

If it's true that Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan use only 6 fewer tips per year than the rest of the NESCAC I don't think they are at that much of a disadvantage.

Of those 6 probably 1, maybe 2 would have been used for football. NESCAC football rosters have 75 players! 1 or 2 kids each year is not going to have that much of an impact.

I maintain that Trinity has had more recruiting success, not because they have 1 or 2 more tips per year, but because the admission requirements for ALL students is less stringent that that of Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan. That, coupled with the fact that they have begun to recruit nationally and that Trinity is a very appealing school for athletes gives them advantages.

I have no problem admitting that the average student at Wil, Amh, and Wes are more academically qualified than an average Trin student. Numbers are numbers and facts are facts... however, that does not necessarily have a correlation to the members of these respective football teams. And to say that Trinity dominates because they are cheating to get dumb football players into school is absurd.

[formerbant10]

I thought that the number of "Tips" is limited by the conference?  Someone posted the formula about them before....something like 2 for every Varsity Sport the College fields, plus an extra 15 or so for Football and I think a few more for Ice Hockey.

I'm not sure though.  If it is true, does that mean that Williams and Amherst use fewer tips than the rest of the conference willingly?? 

And if they are doing that on their own (again, I don't know what the deal is) then the rest of the NESCAC schools should not be looked down upon for following the rules handed down to them by the conference.

There are no rules set up by the nescac regarding each schools admission policies/financial aid packages. Each school can do what they want. Each nescac school basically does it the same though in terms of kids coaches can ask admissions to lower the bar for. Williams (and probably amherst) have raised the bar in recent years. (thats what coaches have told me anyway.)

Utah, I wasn't saying that the NESCAC gives you the exact number of tips you can use, but set a bar that tips can't go over.  That seems to be what this article infers as well. 

Has anyone else read the books by Shulman and Bowen.  They're ridiculous!  All of their information is greatly skewed to make it seem like the "helmet" sports and basketball teams are made up of neanderthals.  They then go on to show that athletes do have a difference in GPA, the difference being a 3.3 (non-athlete) to a 3.0.  A "B+" to a "B" is what they are screaming murder about.  It's absurd and should piss off any scholar athlete that went to a NESCAC school. 

[Jonny Utah]

I thought that the number of "Tips" is limited by the conference?  Someone posted the formula about them before....something like 2 for every Varsity Sport the College fields, plus an extra 15 or so for Football and I think a few more for Ice Hockey.

I'm not sure though.  If it is true, does that mean that Williams and Amherst use fewer tips than the rest of the conference willingly?? 

And if they are doing that on their own (again, I don't know what the deal is) then the rest of the NESCAC schools should not be looked down upon for following the rules handed down to them by the conference.

There are no rules set up by the nescac regarding each schools admission policies/financial aid packages. Each school can do what they want. Each nescac school basically does it the same though in terms of kids coaches can ask admissions to lower the bar for. Williams (and probably amherst) have raised the bar in recent years. (thats what coaches have told me anyway.)

Utah, I wasn't saying that the NESCAC gives you the exact number of tips you can use, but set a bar that tips can't go over.  That seems to be what this article infers as well. 

Has anyone else read the books by Shulman and Bowen.  They're ridiculous!  All of their information is greatly skewed to make it seem like the "helmet" sports and basketball teams are made up of neanderthals.  They then go on to show that athletes do have a difference in GPA, the difference being a 3.3 (non-athlete) to a 3.0.  A "B+" to a "B" is what they are screaming murder about.  It's absurd and should piss off any scholar athlete that went to a NESCAC school. 

No, I was saying that theres no official rule that states nescac schools can go over that tip line.  If colby wants to let in 25 kids a year under the admissions bar, they arent breaking any official league rule.  If they decided to schedule a non-league game with Plymouth St. in September, then they would be breaking a league rule.

[bant551]

I still think that there are advantages on both ends.  Some 6'6" lineman who falls just below the Ivy League standards, and who has his choice of NESCACs, would typically choose Williams or Amherst, and if he can't get into those two, he'd probably go down the "pecking order" of the NESCAC rankings and get into the best school possible.  Thats a big advantage.

[formerbant10]

Utah, I take it you are in some position where you are in the know of exact NESCAC specifications for admissions then?

I had heard many grumblings in previous years about how the NESCAC was limiting the number of athletes in.  So I assumed that meant that the NESCAC has a set number of "tips" per school. 

Even with that, I'm sure that some coaches in some sports at some of the schools have a great relationship with the admissions staff.  And they way they maintain that good standing is by not using their "tips" on meathead jocks who end up making the school look bad.  The higher quality person the coaches recruit, the more likely the admissions staff will help them out....and that way both departments win.

[Jonny Utah]

Utah, I take it you are in some position where you are in the know of exact NESCAC specifications for admissions then?

I had heard many grumblings in previous years about how the NESCAC was limiting the number of athletes in.  So I assumed that meant that the NESCAC has a set number of "tips" per school. 

Even with that, I'm sure that some coaches in some sports at some of the schools have a great relationship with the admissions staff.  And they way they maintain that good standing is by not using their "tips" on meathead jocks who end up making the school look bad.  The higher quality person the coaches recruit, the more likely the admissions staff will help them out....and that way both departments win.

No, I never said I knew I the exact nescac specifications just from what some coaches have told me from various nescac schools.  I knew it was around 15 tips a year or so for each school but I never knew the exact number.

What I did know that there is no nescac rule that says how many people schools can let in or who they can let in.  It was an unnofficial policy between admissions departments that a certain amount of tips were allowed for athletic teams.  If a nescac school wants to lower the bar for 50 football players a year then they can do that and they wouldnt be breaking any nescac rules.  If they practiced during July they would be breaking a rule. 

[chessdoc]

anyone have a handle on the type of sparq scores the average incoming nescac freshmen back might have??? ie bench 225 vertical jump shuttle 40 time laser etc thanks

[bant551]

Don't worry too much about it.  Show up in shape, work out all summer, do spints, lift weights, and show up "as is".  They will either use you right away in some capacity, or groom you into their system.  As for strength numbers, etc., there is little you can do but prepare yourself.  If you got into a school, they clearly wanted you to play for them.  For an incoming freshman running back, I don't think you'd need to throw up 225 that many times to impress the coaches.  You'd be a high school kid and you'd be surprised at how many kids show up without knowing much about weight lifting.  If you are concerned about those types of things, you probably know how to work out, so just keep on plugging.

[chessdoc]

bant did u get the email? congrats to colorado college we talked to them alot great guys best of luck to behar what a nice fellow

[chessdoc]

sorry meant bant551 my bad

[bant551]

yes, received, did you get my reply?

[chessdoc]

no please resend thx

[bant551]

re-sent sir.  Did you get it this time?