FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[LinemenRathletes2]

I'm pretty sure Nescacfan05 may have played at Amherst in '01 when Dence coached there. Maybe Dence gave him some *gasp* constructive criticism and he just never got over it. We have already beat to death the current problem regarding the dense overpopulation of snobbery in the nescac... there is another kind: those who attended the current 'big three' (TR, WL, AM) and couldn't possibly concede that a school other than those had made a good hiring, recruited some legit players, etc... god forbid any of the 'bottom feeders' do something to try and improve their program. We wouldn't want any of those "lower class athletes" gaining a little bit of confidence, next they might actually think that they can win some games. Personally I love to root for those 'lower-tier' teams. I would love to see Bates go into Western Mass and beat Amherst that first game... why not? the status quo is so boring.

[Pallos]

  Ephman1991,
     
                  I just checked in and saw your post today. A while back, I made the  post below looking for insight to applying to Williams. My son is a top notch student and good football player and Williams will be his far and away his first choice. He will not be good enough to receive a tip or football but will eventually ( junior year ) be able to challenge for a starting position. We are worried that although his SAT's scores are excellent and he is ranked # 1 in his class, he may fall between the cracks like his friend did ( see below post). ( My son also is fluent in 5 languages, Mandarin, Greek, English, German and Japanese but outside of his studies & sports he has limited extra-curriculars). Few students from our school have been admitted to Williams in the past 5-7 years and the rumour is that our prep school college counsellor somehow has a bad relationship with the Williams admssions office. Sounds farfetched, I know, but that's  what  some people swear is true.  Is it possible that a coach can write a supporting letter in lieu of designating my son a tip? Does that ever happen at Williams to your knowledge? Although it was awhile back, could you shed some light on your own admissions experience at Williams. There are very few assurances and people there are very tight about w/ info. This level of silence seems almost unique to Williams as Princeton, Harvard, Dartmouth and Middlebury ( his back-up)  have all been very welcoming and reassuring about his chances. Thanks very much for any insight you can provide. Also, you ( please just you and/or other Williams guys ) can contact me offline if that's better at twm_60@yahoo.com.

My earlier post ----

Does anyone have any familiarity with Williams admissions policies for athletes? My son will be applying next year and badly wants to go there. He is a very good athlete but will not be a tipped ( is that the term) athlete-- he's just not good enough according to his present coach-- but he is a 2 yr all-league player in his prep league.  He is ranked #1 in his class and has excellent scores at oneof the top prep schols in the country. My question: Is there anything a coach can do to support an athlete in the admissions process other than designating him ( or her ) as a tip?
   
     My son's friend appilied to Williams this past year and was not admitted despite being an All -NE Prep player and class validictorian ( w/ perfect Math SAT"s!! ). His father said that because he had such stellar academic the coach, decided not to tip him thinking he wouldn't need it. He went into the regular applicant pool where every other kid also had stellar grades and scores and gotten eaten alive. He applied early and then regular pools and was wait-listed ( but too deep down to ever be accepted ). The parents were able to talk with an admissions officer who agreed that he had a great scores/grades but that his essay wasn't that compelling? When they aske dif a tip woukld have made a difference the admissions officer refused to answer, saying that that would be speculation. Anyway, the kid will be at Harvard this fall so don't feel too sorry for him but he was very disappointed with a lack of explanation and felt he was just as good a player as kids Williams "tipped",  but with better grades and scores. It seems a shame that this has to happen to a kid who clearly just fell between the cracks because his parents may not have been assertive enough with a coach to demand a tip or at least some support. This kid's parents were heart-broken because they felt the system failed them and I am worried that my son will suffer the same fate unless I demand some form of support before  even applying. Has anyone gone through this themselves  with Williams-- or have any idea of what a coach can do for kids he would like but can't tip. I am just interested in how Williams handles this for now. Thanks.

[Jonny Utah]

  Ephman1991,
     
                  I just checked in and saw your post today. A while back, I made the  post below looking for insight to applying to Williams. My son is a top notch student and good football player and Williams will be his far and away his first choice. He will not be good enough to receive a tip or football but will eventually ( junior year ) be able to challenge for a starting position. We are worried that although his SAT's scores are excellent and he is ranked # 1 in his class, he may fall between the cracks like his friend did ( see below post). ( My son also is fluent in 5 languages, Mandarin, Greek, English, German and Japanese but outside of his studies & sports he has limited extra-curriculars). Few students from our school have been admitted to Williams in the past 5-7 years and the rumour is that our prep school college counsellor somehow has a bad relationship with the Williams admssions office. Sounds farfetched, I know, but that's  what  some people swear is true.  Is it possible that a coach can write a supporting letter in lieu of designating my son a tip? Does that ever happen at Williams to your knowledge? Although it was awhile back, could you shed some light on your own admissions experience at Williams. There are very few assurances and people there are very tight about w/ info. This level of silence seems almost unique to Williams as Princeton, Harvard, Dartmouth and Middlebury ( his back-up)  have all been very welcoming and reassuring about his chances. Thanks very much for any insight you can provide. Also, you ( please just you and/or other Williams guys ) can contact me offline if that's better at twm_60@yahoo.com.

My earlier post ----

Does anyone have any familiarity with Williams admissions policies for athletes? My son will be applying next year and badly wants to go there. He is a very good athlete but will not be a tipped ( is that the term) athlete-- he's just not good enough according to his present coach-- but he is a 2 yr all-league player in his prep league.  He is ranked #1 in his class and has excellent scores at oneof the top prep schols in the country. My question: Is there anything a coach can do to support an athlete in the admissions process other than designating him ( or her ) as a tip?
   
     My son's friend appilied to Williams this past year and was not admitted despite being an All -NE Prep player and class validictorian ( w/ perfect Math SAT"s!! ). His father said that because he had such stellar academic the coach, decided not to tip him thinking he wouldn't need it. He went into the regular applicant pool where every other kid also had stellar grades and scores and gotten eaten alive. He applied early and then regular pools and was wait-listed ( but too deep down to ever be accepted ). The parents were able to talk with an admissions officer who agreed that he had a great scores/grades but that his essay wasn't that compelling? When they aske dif a tip woukld have made a difference the admissions officer refused to answer, saying that that would be speculation. Anyway, the kid will be at Harvard this fall so don't feel too sorry for him but he was very disappointed with a lack of explanation and felt he was just as good a player as kids Williams "tipped",  but with better grades and scores. It seems a shame that this has to happen to a kid who clearly just fell between the cracks because his parents may not have been assertive enough with a coach to demand a tip or at least some support. This kid's parents were heart-broken because they felt the system failed them and I am worried that my son will suffer the same fate unless I demand some form of support before  even applying. Has anyone gone through this themselves  with Williams-- or have any idea of what a coach can do for kids he would like but can't tip. I am just interested in how Williams handles this for now. Thanks.

I would call an assistant coach.  Let him know your son is interested and tell him his SAT's and grades and he can give you an idea right away as too what football can do for him. 

[bant551]

Send tapes to as many schools as he likes as early as possible -- both a highlight and 2 BEST game tapes --  then write a letter about how he is very interested, would like to visit and meet with coaches, please contact us to notify us whether or not you are interested, what else you'd like to know, etc.

Getting on it early is very, very helpful.  I sent out my junior year tapes before senior football season really was halfway over, along with a really good senior year game from early in the season.  If you have some tapes this early on, good for you, and you should send them on out.

[LinemenRathletes2]

I agree, sending out tapes is great. I'm not sure which camps Whalen does, if any, but I'm sure that Williams coaches will be attending more than a few camps this summer. Its a little late for this advice because I think most occur in June/July but its probably worth seeing if your kid could attend a camp where there are going to be some Williams coaches, its a great way for them to get to know your son pre-recruiting process, also im sure they have a prospective recruit day that your son should attend. I wouldn't panic about Williams right now, because its still so early on but if they fail to show interest later in the school year then looking elsewhere doesn't seem like the end of the world... Personally if Williams was blowing me off and Princeton, Harvard, Dartmouth and Middlebury were showing interest then I would think it was their loss.

[speedy]

     
                   . .  Is it possible that a coach can write a supporting letter in lieu of designating my son a tip?  . .

My guess is that would not be proper as Williams has numerical caps on tips and writing such a letter would probably be deemed to be a slick way to circumvent the caps and might not be well received by admissions.

If the Williams coach has told you or your son that he won't use a tip (or a "protect" (a protect is the bump through the admissions process for the academically well qualified athlete)) on your son, you should probably look elsewhere.

It's hard to tell from your posts whether your son has not been well received by Williams or whether you are just betting that he will not be well received based on the experience of your son's friend. If it's the latter and your son has not made contact with the Williams coach, it would be prudent to find out exactly how interested the coach might be in your son so he can make a decision to apply early decision to Williams or to pick another school for an early decision application (NESCAC coaches tend to guide their recruits to the ED process and to use most of their tips in the ED process so as not to waste any tips).

[bant551]

I'm pretty sure that in general, coaches can have a steady dialouge with the admissions department.  They can ask admissions what the kid's chances are of getting in WITHOUT a tip, I think.

I could be completely wrong here, but my understanding is that they can -- and do -- consistently try to figure these things out.  I'm not sure it is to the extent of the admissions department essentially saying "Don't worry about this kid, he can get in without football and you don't need to use a tip", but I think they can get SOME information from admissions and make educated guesses.

Does anyone know the extent -- if any -- of the coaching staff's ability to work with admissions in this manner?

[speedy]

I'm pretty sure that in general, coaches can have a steady dialouge with the admissions department.  They can ask admissions what the kid's chances are of getting in WITHOUT a tip, I think.

I could be completely wrong here, but my understanding is that they can -- and do -- consistently try to figure these things out.  I'm not sure it is to the extent of the admissions department essentially saying "Don't worry about this kid, he can get in without football and you don't need to use a tip", but I think they can get SOME information from admissions and make educated guesses.

Does anyone know the extent -- if any -- of the coaching staff's ability to work with admissions in this manner?

I know how it works at Bowdoin. The Bowdoin football coach submits a list of names to the admissions department of players that he is considering and assigns each of them a rating of 1 through 5 based on their football skills. The admissions department then tells him which applicants are likely to be admitted without a tip and which ones need to be tipped.  My guess is that those who have received a low rating from the coach on their football skills are strictly on their own in the admissions process. Tips also tend to be assigned on the basis of position needs so a lesser athlete could get a tip over a better athlete if the lesser athlete fills a particular need.

[dirtybirds8-0]

I would have your son fill out 5 seperate applications with each language he is fluent in....If that does not get him in nothing will.

5 languages....and he is in high school!  Forget Williams...Harvard or Yale should be his top priorities.

[nescac1]

First, just because he is not tipped does not mean he won't get in on his own -- it sounds like he is a very strong candidate even without football, and being good at football will only help.  People on this board act as if you're dead w/out a tip -- remember, Williams only gives 66 tips a year, yet has another 100 or so frosh playing varsity sports.  Those spots are filled by kids like your son -- students strong enought to get admitted, and pushed over the top by athletic ability.  In football, there are usually around 25 football players who are frosh, and 16 are tips, meaning the rest are normal admits.

Here is my advice.  First, I would talk to the coach, and let him know that you are considering applying early to a few places but Williams is where his heart is set if he feels confident he will get in, and see if that spurs the coach to use a tip, after giving all the tapes and so on that you can provide.  Second, if it really is the top choice, just apply early even w/out the tip -- you still have RD at all the other schools.  And I would really, really emphasize the languages --- Williams is not known as a mecca for language studies, and it is always trying to boost enrollment /interest in those departments, so to the extent you can characterize your son as someone who is a great overall student from a strong academic background, who will contribute to football (even if not a likely star), with a love for and great ability in languages / foreign cultures (basically, a solid 1/2 academically, with not one but two hooks), I think that is a very attractive admissions profile. 

I wouldn't be scared off by one admissions story. You don't know what this kid's recs were like or what his essay said or whether he came across as too one-dimensional w/out really excelling in that particular dimension.  The fact is, Williams only lets in 17 percent of the applicants, like many other top schools today, so there are plenty of kids they would love to admit they simply don't have room for, it ends up as a numbers game and there are no guarantees anywhere.  But don't give up on your top choice for that reason, with his profile, your son will have lots of great choices in RD, so don't forsake applying ED just because he has no guarantee.  Maybe his odds are only 50-50 or even as low as 33-67, but that's a lot better than 17 percent for the rest of the applicant pool.  Just make sure he's seen, with his essay, recs, and activities/interests profile, as someone who is more than just good numbers and football -- the languages hook should be a way to do so. 

Finally, shame on the Trinity poster who pushed Harvard or Yale over Williams or MIdd -- sure, they are harder to get into (marginally) than any NESCAC school, but they almost certainly provide a worse education for most undergrads (I know as a close family member attended the big H) in my view.  Plus, if your son really wants to play football, the opportunities will be far more abundant at a NESCAC than an Ivy league school, as they get bigger and faster athletes for football in particular (the gap is narrower in most other sports). 

[Jonny Utah]

One more thing about necsac coaches that Ive had experiences with in the past.  If a kid talks to the coach, most times the coach will tell the kid what he needs to improve on before the early application is entered.  The coach will often times tell you your in the school before you even apply.  (this means your a tip)  other times the coach will say.  "Get your SATs up to a 1350 or 1400 and you can get in".

And I agree about the Harvard/Yale/Williams thing.  In my experience in high school guidance, students denied by Williams college were often times admitted to Yale and Harvard.

[Jonny Utah]

And I reread barnards blog letter about a proposed academic index at nescac schools.  Am I the only one who thinks Barnard is absoutly right?  What makes (or what should make) the nescac so great is all schools having equal academic philosophies?

----------------------------------


We found the letter below on ephblog.com and decided to track the comments and thoughts. We weren't sure what would transpire but it has certainly sparked some debate.

This letter is from Williams College Baseball Coach Dave Barnard. He writes on the need for an academic index for the NESCAC. Let us know your thoughts by posting in the comments or on the message boards (a thread has already started with some debate brewing - check it out!)



Williams Coach Dave Barnard (above)

In Support of an NESCAC Academic Index for Athletes by Dave Barnard, Head Baseball/Ast. Football Coach, Williams College May 18,2006

It has been 2 years since Williams College was won a NESCAC championship or even a NESCAC playoff game in a men's American team sport (football, basketball, baseball, hockey and lacrosse).

Since it seems clear that we are not going to put the Jeannie back in the bottle in terms of admitting 7's as athletic tips (SAT scores of 1150-1250), Williams should be leading the effort to adopt a league-wide academic index (minimum standards based on each school's median SAT scores) and a NESCAC enforcement mechanism just as Harvard, Yale and Princeton did when Penn rattled off several consecutive Ivy League football championships in the 1980's with kids who could not get into any other Ivy league school.

It has now gotten to the point where Williams has very little academic overlap with any other school in the league except Amherst in those sports (Amherst will go lower than us for an impact player and has admitted to taking 75 priority listed athletes for 6 fewer sports than Williams). We have no players with less than 1250 SAT's and all other NESCAC schools except Amherst have no significant starters with SAT's over 1250. Since the pool of players is much larger at the lower SAT levels (there might also be an inverse correlation between SAT scores and ability to play men's American team sports) it stands to reason that the schools that take the lower academic kids have the best players and thus the best teams.

I don't think it's fair to our male team sport student-athletes to put them into situations where they are at a competitive disadvantage within the league.

When an academic index has been brought up by Williams coaches internally or by Williams athletic administrators at league meetings we immediately hear opposition from the biggest offenders of the two standard deviation rule, schools who not coincidentally don't require SAT scores. "How can we have an academic index when we don't require SAT scores?" is the standard retort. Of course, the main reason those schools don't require SAT scores is so they can admit players who wouldn't otherwise academically qualify.

Rules without enforcement are meaningless, evidence the 14 slot rule in football and the 66 NESCAC athletic priority admit agreement. Amherst had 28 freshmen football players on their roster last year. At this point I don't think that the other NESCAC schools even pretend to adhere to 66 athletic priority admits.

Several years ago in a position paper entitled "It's All About Who Gets In," I predicted that if Williams unilaterally reduced athletic priority slots while eliminating low band admits it would "simply be a matter of time before our teams are significantly less competitive." That statement has certainly come to fruition for the men's American team sports. If we don't push for league-wide minimum SAT standards and enforcement of those parameters I don't see how that situation is going to change.

 

[LinemenRathletes2]

thanks to your kind post, Dave Barnard has decided not to walk off a cliff today.

[formerbant10]

And I reread barnards blog letter about a proposed academic index at nescac schools.  Am I the only one who thinks Barnard is absoutly right?  What makes (or what should make) the nescac so great is all schools having equal academic philosophies?

----------------------------------


We found the letter below on ephblog.com and decided to track the comments and thoughts. We weren't sure what would transpire but it has certainly sparked some debate.

This letter is from Williams College Baseball Coach Dave Barnard. He writes on the need for an academic index for the NESCAC. Let us know your thoughts by posting in the comments or on the message boards (a thread has already started with some debate brewing - check it out!)



Williams Coach Dave Barnard (above)

In Support of an NESCAC Academic Index for Athletes by Dave Barnard, Head Baseball/Ast. Football Coach, Williams College May 18,2006

It has been 2 years since Williams College was won a NESCAC championship or even a NESCAC playoff game in a men's American team sport (football, basketball, baseball, hockey and lacrosse).

We have no players with less than 1250 SAT's and all other NESCAC schools except Amherst have no significant starters with SAT's over 1250.

I don't think it's fair to our male team sport student-athletes to put them into situations where they are at a competitive disadvantage within the league.


Several years ago in a position paper entitled "It's All About Who Gets In," I predicted that if Williams unilaterally reduced athletic priority slots while eliminating low band admits it would "simply be a matter of time before our teams are significantly less competitive." That statement has certainly come to fruition for the men's American team sports. If we don't push for league-wide minimum SAT standards and enforcement of those parameters I don't see how that situation is going to change.

 

I'll be completely honest and say that this letter, again, is simply the rant of a frustrated coach.  He is upset that Williams has not won a league championship in a "men's American team sport" in the past few years and now he wants the rules changed so that Williams can be successful once again.  Does that seem fair to the other schools?  I didn't see any of the basketball teams crying foul when Williams won the NCAA's and then lost at the buzzer the next year.  In fact, it made every other school work even harder to try to knock them off the top.....which Amherst has done in the past couple years.

Each school is different.  They attract different types of people to their different campuses for different reasons.  Some students who choose Wesleyan do so because their ultra-liberal thinking is accepted their.  Other students choose Tufts because of its location.  Making every school have to accept the same type of student would eventually, I fear, take away from the individuality of the schools.    

While I don't think NESCAC schools should let everybody in, which it seems like they don't, I feel that instituting a league wide index that every school must adhere to would give Williams and Amherst a tremendous advantage on the playing fields.  Why can't this coach simply be happy that Williams won the Director's Cup for the 1,300th time in 10 years?!?  

I feel like I must remind everyone that this is Intercollegiate Athletics, not everyone gets a trophy.  Blame it on the helicopter parents who want all their kids to feel special no matter what, or blame it on the other schools cheating their way to the top.  Don't worry about what you can't control!

Is Williams turning into the Yankees of college sports?  Do they have the pressure now to win at all costs?  I thought they rejected The Boss' money because they didn't want to deal with him!

[speedy]

And I reread barnards blog letter about a proposed academic index at nescac schools.  Am I the only one who thinks Barnard is absoutly right?  What makes (or what should make) the nescac so great is all schools having equal academic philosophies?

It does not make any sense because academic standards and admissions standards and philosophies vary from NESCAC school to NESCAC school. Barnard's premise is that the SAT should be at the center of these standards when a significant number of NESCAC schools have already developed admissions standards that assign less importance to those test scores.  

In any event, I don't see why parity in admissions standards is necessary for fair competition in the athletic arena. Top-tier NESCACs such as Williams have other advantages over lower-ranked NESCACs such as Trinity in terms of financial resources to give scholarships and to underwrite their athletic programs. Admissions standards are but one factor in giving one school an advantage over another.