FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[lewdogg11]

And one thing Ive learned when it comes to SATs is that you can NEVER believe what a kid or parent tells you their SATs score is.  Unless its a coach specifically asking you or the school specifically printing it, people lie about those things all the time.

I had this dude in HS, who transferred in his senior year from Georgia....

I was like 'Yo, <Dude's Name> how'd you do on your SATs?'

He was like, with a dead straight face, cause even he believed it '1700'.

Pretty funny stuff....Had I known then, what I know now, I woulda told him to apply to Williams.

[Tags]

Pat, that is a starting player on the team saying what the coach informed him ... that is a pretty good source. 

It's hearsay from someone with no printed stats or confirmation. That is NOT a source. It's second-hand spin.

+k for calling that type of thing out Pat - Something you heard from a friend doesn't hold water in a debate such as this.

[nescac1]

Apparently only folks get called out when they defend Williams, because folks post all kinds of bs stories about the scores of kids who supposedly got accepted to and/or recruited by Williams all the time on this site.  I am not sure why the HEAD COACH of Williams would be lying to his players (and I have seen several media reports about the academic credentials of specific Williams players, including one star recruit this year who turned down Harvard and got a 1490, just none that have the average SAT of the entire team) about the academic credentials of the incoming class, and why one team member would in turn lie on both the internal Williams discussion page and the most widely read news source about Williams.  Ephblog is actually a pretty good source, if things on there are false when posted, they are always called out by someone, trust me, there is a very big readership.  It would have been very easy for one of the hundreds of readers of WSO or Ephblog to debunk the 1405 claim, and no one did. 

In any event, it's the same old story ... when Trinity was on top, everyone took unjustified, unverifiable shots at them, and the longer they were on top, the more viscious they became.  If Williams stays on top for a few years, the same thing will happen.   If Trinity wins the title again this year (which they are probably the pre-season favorite to do at this point, with all they bring back and getting the Ephs at home) you can be sure the scrutiny will turn their way once again ...

[Trin9-0]

Apparently only folks get called out when they defend Williams, because folks post all kinds of bs stories about the scores of kids who supposedly got accepted to and/or recruited by Williams all the time on this site.  I am not sure why the HEAD COACH of Williams would be lying to his players (and I have seen several media reports about the academic credentials of specific Williams players, including one star recruit this year who turned down Harvard and got a 1490, just none that have the average SAT of the entire team) about the academic credentials of the incoming class, and why one team member would in turn lie on both the internal Williams discussion page and the most widely read news source about Williams.  Ephblog is actually a pretty good source, if things on there are false when posted, they are always called out by someone, trust me, there is a very big readership.  It would have been very easy for one of the hundreds of readers of WSO or Ephblog to debunk the 1405 claim, and no one did. 

In any event, it's the same old story ... when Trinity was on top, everyone took unjustified, unverifiable shots at them, and the longer they were on top, the more viscious they became.  If Williams stays on top for a few years, the same thing will happen.   If Trinity wins the title again this year (which they are probably the pre-season favorite to do at this point, with all they bring back and getting the Ephs at home) you can be sure the scrutiny will turn their way once again ...

In this particular case I don't think anyone is necessarily taking shots at Williams, as much as they are calling into question the validity of the sources you provided. I agree that a head coach would most likely not lie to his players and also that most of the posters on Ephblog would LOVE to discredit anything that was posted (espcially in regards to football and/or SAT scores). However, it simply isn't a source that can be used to factually prove anything and is in fact hearsay.

In regards to the "shots" on Trinity and Williams, I think it's funny that the scrutiny stems from two very different types of recruiting advantages: "The best players all want to go to Williams because of academics" vs "The best players can only get into Trinity because of academics".

[Jonny Utah]

Ive defended Williams plenty of times.  But in the nescac if you are going to flaunt that the entire class has a 1410, I would assume you could find that information somewhere on the web where the school officially put it out.

"about the academic credentials of the incoming class, and why one team member would in turn lie on both the internal Williams discussion page and the most widely read news source about Williams. "

I dont think anyone called him a liar, but when the source is a third party hersay and the topic is SAT scores, I think its fair to ask for a good source.


"Ephblog is actually a pretty good source, if things on there are false when posted, they are always called out by someone, trust me, there is a very big readership.  It would have been very easy for one of the hundreds of readers of WSO or Ephblog to debunk the 1405 claim, and no one did."

And it didnt seem that there were that many replies to that posting anyway.

[lewdogg11]

Ive defended Williams plenty of times.  But in the nescac if you are going to flaunt that the entire class has a 1410, I would assume you could find that information somewhere on the web where the school officially put it out.

"about the academic credentials of the incoming class, and why one team member would in turn lie on both the internal Williams discussion page and the most widely read news source about Williams. "

I dont think anyone called him a liar, but when the source is a third party hersay and the topic is SAT scores, I think its fair to ask for a good source.


"Ephblog is actually a pretty good source, if things on there are false when posted, they are always called out by someone, trust me, there is a very big readership.  It would have been very easy for one of the hundreds of readers of WSO or Ephblog to debunk the 1405 claim, and no one did."

And it didnt seem that there were that many replies to that posting anyway.

I find it hard to believe that the average for any 'groups' be it a grade level, a major, the entire school, the women's equestrian team, the asian men's flogging team...whoever...all have over a 1410.

[Jonny Utah]

And one thing Ive learned when it comes to SATs is that you can NEVER believe what a kid or parent tells you their SATs score is.  Unless its a coach specifically asking you or the school specifically printing it, people lie about those things all the time.

I had this dude in HS, who transferred in his senior year from Georgia....

I was like 'Yo, <Dude's Name> how'd you do on your SATs?'

He was like, with a dead straight face, cause even he believed it '1700'.

Pretty funny stuff....Had I known then, what I know now, I woulda told him to apply to Williams.

That actually reminds me of another kid I know now that went to a lower ranked MA state school who said "yea, I got into Bowdoin and Colby but **** was cheaper"

Which was true but this kid never got into any of those schools....

[bant551]

I'll take a lie detector test about my experience with Williams (2003 gradute), having scored an 1180 (old scale) on the SATS, and having been desperately told upon choosing Trinity that I "am making the biggest mistake of my life".  My best friend from high school accepted his offer to attend Williams and concurred with Coach Farley.

Couldn't be happier with my decision, nor with the insight it gave me as to the BS set forth by those who claim Williams would never get a kid with 1100's into their school, at least insofar as first-hand evidence from a relatively recent graduate is concerned. 

Plus, even more recently, one of my brother's best friends from the high school graduating class of 2001 got into Williams with no better than a 1250.  I know because he is also a friend of mine.  My little brother attended Williams as well (graduating class of 2005), and I'm close with all his friends, most of whom played football and who tell me in no uncertain terms that your claim is utter non-sense.

But hey, keep believing that the football players at Williams AVERAGE a 1400.  Perhaps the source was one of the guys who attended Williams prior to their enhanced standards being put in place, and was in the 1100 range, and therefore his existence and status as a human being should be disregarded.

[bant551]

Johnny wrote:

***Ive defended Williams plenty of times.  But in the nescac if you are going to flaunt that the entire class has a 1410, I would assume you could find that information somewhere on the web where the school officially put it out.***

If this were to be true (the 1400 claim), it likely would have been a New York Times cover story.

[Col. Partridge]

A couple years back (11/9/02 to be precise), there was a NY Times cover story about Williams athletics and admissions standards.  I found it on Lexis, but I don't think the whole article can be posted here b/c of copyright issues.  Anyway, the general tone of the article was that the faculty was worried the school was becoming too much of a jock factory, but there was this quote:

"These students are referred to as coaches' ''tips'' because they were designated on a list devised by coaches and submitted to the college admissions department during the application process. These students, Williams officials say, have average SAT scores of 1300 to 1350 and are ranked in the top 10 percent of their high school class. The average SAT score for the latest freshman class at Williams, including athletes, was 1408, and those students typically had a class rank in the top 5 percent."

Of course that average includes distance runners and swimmers and whatnot, so lets assume at the time the football "tips" were at the bottom of that 1300-1350 range...could the team average have been raised 110 points since 2002?  Maybe...

The larger question...who cares?

[bant551]

"Who cares" is a great question.

This is an insane witch-hunt really.  Not only did Williams win the league handily, they are running around saying that kids like myself don't deserve a shot to get into Trinity, something that is entirely the business of Trinity College and none of their own.  And not for nothing, but mid-1100's (old scale) means that you are quite comfortably above the average level of intelligence of the national and worldwide population.  But somehow the scores of some students being slightly lower than the average Williams kid will ruin your education.

This doesn't affect me personally as I've already graduated, but for the life of me I cannot fathom how this is Williams' business, or the business of the football players (who won the league last year), or the Williams student body in general.  If you don't like the NESCAC, try and have things THAT ARE WITHIN YOUR CONTROL (and hence your business) changed... if it is something that is none of your business and you can't have changed (like the admissions standards of other schools), then leave the NESCAC.

Quite frankly, I could care less if Trinity left the NESCAC, voluntarily (which would never happen) or otherwise.  It is a great place and being associated with some of the biggest snobs on the face of the earth isn't something I hold near and dear. 

Conversely, I could care less if Trinity decided to let Williams makes its admissions decisions for it.  But to act as if you can make that decision for Trinity now is quite presumptuous.

[Jonny Utah]

And who cares what your SATs are anyway.  There are a lot of guys like me who did pretty well, but still never brought a book home in high school and had to turn it around in college after a year and a half of staying up untill 4am every morning only to get up for an 8am class at NCR!

[speedy]

A couple years back (11/9/02 to be precise), there was a NY Times cover story about Williams athletics and admissions standards. 

"These students are referred to as coaches' ''tips'' because they were designated on a list devised by coaches and submitted to the college admissions department during the application process. These students, Williams officials say, have average SAT scores of 1300 to 1350 and are ranked in the top 10 percent of their high school class. The average SAT score for the latest freshman class at Williams, including athletes, was 1408, and those students typically had a class rank in the top 5 percent."

Of course that average includes distance runners and swimmers and whatnot, so lets assume at the time the football "tips" were at the bottom of that 1300-1350 range...could the team average have been raised 110 points since 2002?  Maybe...

The larger question...who cares?

There's nothing in that article to substantiate the assertion that the average tipped FOOTBALL player at Williams had SATs in the range of 1300 - 1350. The Mellon study of a few years ago looked at the SATs of all tipped athletes at NESCAC schools and fund the gap in SAT scores for football tips versus other male admits to be 142 points on the SATs (this study was done when the minimum score was still 1600). Under current standards, this would put the football players' average SATs in the 1250 to 1300 range.

Given its recent success in football, I doubt that Williams has closed that gap in any significant ways as has been claimed on this board. Williams is not so intrinsically different from the other NESCACs than it doesn't have to lower its admission standards to field the best football team in the NESCAC.

[Tags]

And who cares what your SATs are anyway.  There are a lot of guys like me who did pretty well, but still never brought a book home in high school and had to turn it around in college after a year and a half of staying up untill 4am every morning only to get up for an 8am class at NCR!

Seconded. The world is run by C students anyway in my opinion.

[union89]

And who cares what your SATs are anyway.  There are a lot of guys like me who did pretty well, but still never brought a book home in high school and had to turn it around in college after a year and a half of staying up untill 4am every morning only to get up for an 8am class at NCR!

Seconded. The world is run by C students anyway in my opinion.

Agreed Tags....C students who can make others feel good about themselves.

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