FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

[Ralph Turner]

So ... what were you going to bet me, exactly?

I thought I heard that the bet was a $5000.00 banner ad every year for 3 years!

[union89]

I thought we could beat a subject to death over in the LL.......you guys may take the crown on this SAT nonsense......

[nescac1]

Pat, sorry, I missed the story about the SAT average of any particular Williams team in those links.  I never said the NYTimes wouldn't run a story on Div III athletics in general.  Sheesh.

[Pat Coleman]

Not just on D-III athletics in general, but athletic recruiting and tips as it relates to institutions high in the US News rankings, AKA the NESCAC schools and Haverford.

If you don't think that's the same thing then you are really missing the point.

[nescac1]

For the love of God, Pat, read the context of our dispute, and you'll understand why it is not remotely the same thing.  The Trinity poster said that my "unsubstantiated" claim (which, for some reason, gets special scrutiny, unlike all the BS attacks on Williams, without any substantiation at all, posted on this forum) HAD to be false because, if true, it would have been front page news on the NYTimes.  The SAT average of a SINGLE recruiting class of a SINGLE sport at a SINGLE nescac school (as opposed to an article on the entire system of tips in an entire conference) would NEVER be NYTimes front page news, or any kind of news, and even if the Times was interested, no NESCAC school would EVER (or at least not Williams) disseminate that information to a newspaper.  So, the Trinity poster's flawed logic in no way rebutted my claim.  That was the only point I was making, I didn't say that Division III athletics was never newsworthy, as you apparently implied. 

You can choose not to believe the player or the coach I cited, and that is fine, but you can't say, as the Trinity poster did, "were this true, it would have been printed in a newspaper."  That is a totally flawed rebuttal.  My argument was limited to that, and you've blown it up completely out of proportion.   I don't know how to be any more clear.  Alright, I'm done with this ridiculous conversation.  From now on, feel free to claim that the entire Williams football team received payments under the table and were admitted with 800 SAT's for all I care.   One thing is for sure, as long as you are bashing Williams on this forum, no one will ever question your sources or motive. 

[Pat Coleman]

That's fine -- but the assertion that athletics recruiting and SAT scores were not of interest to the media, and the NYT specifically, was false.

[Jonny Utah]

"From now on, feel free to claim that the entire Williams football team received payments under the table and were admitted with 800 SAT's for all I care.   One thing is for sure, as long as you are bashing Williams on this forum, no one will ever question your sources or motive. "

No one ever said that, and I would always step up to defend Williams regarding that issue as I have before. 

[bant551]

***For the love of God, Pat, read the context of our dispute, and you'll understand why it is not remotely the same thing.  The Trinity poster said that my "unsubstantiated" claim (which, for some reason, gets special scrutiny, unlike all the BS attacks on Williams, without any substantiation at all, posted on this forum)***

Who exactly is making ludicrous claims without substantiation about Williams again?

I'm not sure Williams has been "attacked" so much as people have stated with examples -- in my case anecdotal, so tell yourself I'm lying about my experience and that my friends, my brother, and his friends (class of 2005) are lying if it makes you feel better -- that Williams pulls the same BS as all other colleges in the NESCAC and nationally for its athletes.  Having a higher average for SAT scores doesn't mean Williams doesn't bend their admissions standards as much as all other teams. 

By the way, was hanging out with one of my brother's Williams friends who is also from Long Island this weekend.  Brought up this wonderful convo.  The DE/pitcher on the baseball team (class of 2005) didn't seem to agree with you.

But hey, I must be lying, whereas your friend of a football player who talked to a GA who talked to the D-Coordinator who overheard the head coach is far more reliable.

Finally, who the hell cares IF Trinity was letting in guys with 950's?  Why do you care?  Is that shameful?  Would it affect your education if Williams admitted hard-working kids who hit the books but got 950's on their SATs?

[bant551]

On a football note:

re: the ESPYs last night:  Boise State-OU got a ton of credit.  That was an awesome game.  My law-school friend and current roommate grew up in Oklahoma and went to OU, and always looked down on the smaller, mid-major type D-I schools.

Granted, he had reason to expect that in most years against most teams at Boise's level of play, they'd win handily.  But sometimes a program -- despite recruiting and other disadvantages -- finds a way to make it work, even at the top level of competition. 

re: D-3:  I'm in agreement with most from other leagues that most of the time, the Ithaca's, Mount Unions, Lycomings, etc., would dominate in the NESCAC, and would be the favorites even against the NESCAC elite... but I do think that NESCAC programs at the top of their games, in certain seasons, could hang with some of the big boys.  Of course, that doesn't translate into perfect seasons, but perhaps a playoff berth and a run.  Thoughts?

[Ralph Turner]

On a football note:
...

re: D-3:  I'm in agreement with most from other leagues that most of the time, the Ithaca's, Mount Unions, Lycomings, etc., would dominate in the NESCAC, and would be the favorites even against the NESCAC elite... but I do think that NESCAC programs at the top of their games, in certain seasons, could hang with some of the big boys.  Of course, that doesn't translate into perfect seasons, but perhaps a playoff berth and a run.  Thoughts?

The NESCAC's participating in football post-season play would have these effects.

1)  The football playoffs are capped at 32 teams.  The NESCAC's  bid would effectively remove a bid from Pool C.  The Pool A bids in the East Region would be E8, LL, MAC, NEFC, NESCAC and NJAC. 

2)  The extra Pool A bid in the East Region would give another team in the "East" bracket.  Therefore there would be fewer times when a South or North Region team would be moved to the "East" bracket.

3)  A really strong NESCAC team would occasionally be the #1 seed and might host a Semi-final.  That would be a great chance for some team to travel to New England to play a football game at that time of the year.

My perception is that the NESCAC would be considered a perennial contender for the Regional Finals. 

[Pat Coleman]

I'm not 100% sure that's the case -- they may get seeded highly but would have to perform. Clearly, the NESCAC is better than the NEFC, but I don't think the same can be said for the NESCAC against the E8 champ, the NJAC champ or the MAC champ.

[lewdogg11]

I'm not 100% sure that's the case -- they may get seeded highly but would have to perform. Clearly, the NESCAC is better than the NEFC, but I don't think the same can be said for the NESCAC against the E8 champ, the NJAC champ or the MAC champ.

Is that a non-chalant dig at the LL??? 

[Pat Coleman]

I'm not 100% sure that's the case -- they may get seeded highly but would have to perform. Clearly, the NESCAC is better than the NEFC, but I don't think the same can be said for the NESCAC against the E8 champ, the NJAC champ or the MAC champ.

Is that a non-chalant dig at the LL??? 

I've previously stated on more than one occasion that I think the best teams in the NESCAC can compete with the top three in the LL.

[Ralph Turner]

I'm not 100% sure that's the case -- they may get seeded highly but would have to perform. Clearly, the NESCAC is better than the NEFC, but I don't think the same can be said for the NESCAC against the E8 champ, the NJAC champ or the MAC champ.

Thanks, Pat.

I defer your assessment of the NESCAC on quality.  (I was being deliberately nebulous.  Being considered a contender for the East Finals would only mean winning two games to get to the finals.)

I was counting on "NESCAC competitive spirit" to bring the programs to the next level. 

[labart96]

I'm not 100% sure that's the case -- they may get seeded highly but would have to perform. Clearly, the NESCAC is better than the NEFC, but I don't think the same can be said for the NESCAC against the E8 champ, the NJAC champ or the MAC champ.

Is that a non-chalant dig at the LL??? 

I've previously stated on more than one occasion that I think the best teams in the NESCAC can compete with the top three in the LL.

That is true - TGP agrees with this assessment.  However, TGP would disagree that the top 3 in the LL and/or LL league champ can't play toe to toe with the champs from the other leagues (E8, NJAC and MAC) as TGP thinks the LL has shown that they can in fact hang with the best teams in the east, especially in recent years.  This argument has come up in the past, and it is not TGP's intent to re-start the same old "LL don't get no respeck" thread.

Of course, Union didn't do the LL any favors by getting smoked by SJF last season, but Hobart went toe to toe with Rowan (lost by 2 in the final minute and change) and RPI defeated Cortland in the ECACs (TGP knows your general stance on these contests, so if that doesn't suffice, how about Hobart's 2005 NCAA victory over Cortland?  That 2005 Hobart team also went toe to toe with a strong Del Val team in the next round). 

Maybe to put it a little differently - Is it fair to say, perhaps excluding the NEFC based on their track record that, in general, the East Region has reached a point of parity (at least among the league champs/top 2 teams in each respective league)?