BB: ASC: American Southwest Conference

[Jack Parkman]

Once again the ASC is shafted. The selection commitee is absolutley brutal.

Just curious how they got shafted?  Not trying to argue, just curious.

[TexasBB]

This is second year in a row that the ASC (a conference of 15 teams) has only one representative in the playoffs. I beleive that the ASC is one of the toughest conferences in DIV III but their structure has worked against them. They have had at least two teams that have won 30 games or more in both 2008 and 2009 that did not get a pool C bid. Last year they had 3 teams sitting at home Ozarks, CTX and UTT with UTT ranked in the top 20 nationally. This year it was TLU and MC both of them division or co-division champions winning 30 games or more.

In womens softball I note the ASC is more respeceted on a national level as it had 3 teams this year in the NCAA regional (UTT, LC, ETBU).

I feel bad for the seniors that have played on the teams left behind. I am sure their teams could beat a lot of the teams from other regions that got Pool C bids and finished with less than 30 wins. 

Once again I think all of us need to lobby for the NCAA to expand to 64 teams so that this does not continue to happen. In a well balanced conference like the ASC it is difficult to have a standout as the teams continue to beat each other up. To the casual observer the lack of an obvious leader leads to a feeling that the entire conference is just average and thus they will fail to recognize the ASC as an above average conference that has multiple good teams. It is much easier to get a bid from a conference where there is only two good teams and rest very average than to get a bid from a confence with 6-8 good teams that punish each other.

[BigPoppa]

That is an ASC issue, not an NCAA. While I do think they are a great conference, each conference is only awarded one Pool A bid. After that, the teams are matched on a national level and the ASC beats up on itself.

[golden_dome]

That is an ASC issue, not an NCAA. While I do think they are a great conference, each conference is only awarded one Pool A bid. After that, the teams are matched on a national level and the ASC beats up on itself.

It's not only an ASC issue, it's also the NCAA. I agree the ASC as a conference does have circumstances that make it more difficult, but the process also does not help.

I think it would help if the NCAA would release more information every year to reveal why teams are chosen ahead of others, transparency in this case would be a good thing. I think it would go a long way to educating schools, coaches and fans about the process and help coaches with future scheduling. Then at least conferences would know where they are deficient. I know Pat Coleman has lobbied for the numbers to be made public, but it hasn't happened.

I'm sure there's some reason why the NCAA keeps the information private, but I can't think of any. Maybe their online software doesn't export the numbers, but you would think that could easily be done.

[TexasBB]

Just to highlight the fact that the ASC beats each other up, I took a look at the champions and co-champions records this past year. UTT and MC in the east and TLU in the west. The overall records of the teams in the ASC against other ASC teams including cross-over contests and the conference tournament.

UTT 23-9
MC  21-9
TLU 21-10

So the three best teams each had at least 9 losses against teams from the conference. Double digit losses normally gets you left out so this leaves no room for an off game outside the confernce. UTT ended up with a 38-10 record with its only non-confence loss to Marrietta which was a non-regional game. TLU ended up 30-14 so it had 4 non-conference losses and MC was 30-16 with 7 non-confence losses (3 of those to Millsaps).

[Ralph Turner]

This is second year in a row that the ASC (a conference of 15 teams) has only one representative in the playoffs. I beleive that the ASC is one of the toughest conferences in DIV III but their structure has worked against them. They have had at least two teams that have won 30 games or more in both 2008 and 2009 that did not get a pool C bid. Last year they had 3 teams sitting at home Ozarks, CTX and UTT with UTT ranked in the top 20 nationally. This year it was TLU and MC both of them division or co-division champions winning 30 games or more.

In womens softball I note the ASC is more respeceted on a national level as it had 3 teams this year in the NCAA regional (UTT, LC, ETBU).

I feel bad for the seniors that have played on the teams left behind. I am sure their teams could beat a lot of the teams from other regions that got Pool C bids and finished with less than 30 wins. 

Once again I think all of us need to lobby for the NCAA to expand to 64 teams so that this does not continue to happen. In a well balanced conference like the ASC it is difficult to have a standout as the teams continue to beat each other up. To the casual observer the lack of an obvious leader leads to a feeling that the entire conference is just average and thus they will fail to recognize the ASC as an above average conference that has multiple good teams. It is much easier to get a bid from a conference where there is only two good teams and rest very average than to get a bid from a confence with 6-8 good teams that punish each other.

It is not that we are not respected.  We just are not that much better relative to the men as our women's programs are.  There were 17 Pool C bids to give in softball and the ASC got 2.  We have received 2 bids in hoops before as well as the ASC-West did in 2006.  If we had been different conferences in softball this year, then we would have had 4 teams in the playoffs. That is a mini-bracket!

D-III allocates all of its bids to on a participation model.  For almost every sport, there is one bid for every 6.5 participants in every sport.  The only way we get to 64 bids in baseball is when we get to 416 teams playing baseball at the 1:6.5 ratio or the NCAA gets more TV money and is able to change the ratio to 1:6.00.  We would be at 64  bids at 364 schools, where we will be in baseball in 2013.

Our problem is that we are too big.  When we have 2 very good teams in the same division, then we knock out that good team and the only average division winner on the other side doesn't get a bid either. Bingo.  Only one bid.

We knock ourselves out!

[Ralph Turner]

The other killer for us is our geographic isolation and the OWP/OOWP.

We don't have data for baseball, but we have had data from basketball for several seasons.  Out best teams rarely get above .500.

UTD's OWP this season for baseball was .4998!

[d3baseballnut]

Big Poppa, after seeing dNuts -Karma grade, good thing he's not one of your students! How about St Scholastica's day yesterday? Like you say, you gotta control your own destiny.

I have to stick up for d3baseballnut.  He brings the same intensity and self confidence to these boards that he brought to the baseball diamond--intensity and self confidence that got him within one pitch of a national championship and a spot on the all-CWS team.  My sense is that folks are giving him negative karma not for what he says but for how he says it.  In debate, that's known as an "ad hominem" fallacy.  I frankly find his posts to be very thought-provoking and entertaining (even though I often disagree with them).  I think we all would miss reading what he has to say if he weren't involved.

Thanks RSSmith. Sorry guys if I am too brash in my statements. Perhaps I am a little harsh with the committee...i apologize.

I simply want to guard us from supposing that just because the committee makes a decision, it is the right one.

My heart just goes out to teams in the ASC who have great seasons and never get a shot to play for a title. I am becoming more appreciate of the two opportunities I got at Hopkins to do so. I never realized so many good teams were left out....or shall I say, certain good teams

[golden_dome]

The other killer for us is our geographic isolation and the OWP/OOWP.

We don't have data for baseball, but we have had data from basketball for several seasons.  Out best teams rarely get above .500.

UTD's OWP this season for baseball was .4998!

Ralph,
   That OWP would be very telling. I took a quick look the UTD schedule and the regional records of their opponents, and I thought their OWP was much higher. I was hoping to see MC get in, but I think the ASC has four teams this year who could have won regional games. UT-Tyler, TLU, UTD and MC all had great seasons and in my opinion have better teams than some pool c selections.

  But TLU, UTD and MC can all look at losses this year that kept them out. It's much harder to see how a team like Pacific Lutheran can be #4 in the West Region with a 29-8 regional record and still get left out.

 

[Ralph Turner]

The other killer for us is our geographic isolation and the OWP/OOWP.

We don't have data for baseball, but we have had data from basketball for several seasons.  Out best teams rarely get above .500.

UTD's OWP this season for baseball was .4998!

Let me post my OWP for UT-Dallas tonight.

[LA Mike]

No Head to head, but  Pac LU lost 3 out of 4 to the SCIAC teams, 2 that finished below Cal LU, one that finished above them !!!

Key to be worked on in the next few year for the ASC -- split to 2 separate conferences (correspond to the divisions)-- develop 2 AQ plus the opportunity for a Pool C...............you can do it !!!  Be guaranteed at least 2 AQ slots and from the consistent play in among the conference teams, maybe a third in the form of a pool C slot each year.......

American South East Conference  &  American South West Conference -- no more boarderline !!!!!!!!!!!

[Just_Some_Guy]

I think you could've made a very good case for UT Tyler last year, but this year I genuinely don't think any of the ASC teams "got shafted." If TLU takes 2 of 3 from UTD or Miss takes 2 of 3 from TLU then we can have that conversation.

Another thing to think about. The NCAA probably doesn't care about who would "win" games at a regional, but about giving the the teams that have the most likely chance of getting to the elite 8. Had any of the ASC teams got to an Elite 8 since CTX that would certainly help our case.

Crappy example, but the only thing I can think of off the top of my head: American Idol "wildcards" -- they're not picking who can "get deep," rather people they think have a definite chance of winning it all.

Cal Lutheran has a lot of depth on the bump. They've played well in a much-improved SCIAC conference this year. Could TLU or Miss win a couple of games in the regional. YES. But are they likely to come out of that regional? Probably not. Neither team has the depth on the mound. Tyler, last year, that's a potentially different story.

I'm as big of an ASC-homer as anyone, and everything everyone is staying about the strength of the ASC is undeniably true. I think year in and year out it's in the top tier (3-4) of conferences.

JSG

[Ralph Turner]

I think you could've made a very good case for UT Tyler last year, but this year I genuinely don't think any of the ASC teams "got shafted." If TLU takes 2 of 3 from UTD or Miss takes 2 of 3 from TLU then we can have that conversation.

Another thing to think about. The NCAA probably doesn't care about who would "win" games at a regional, but about giving the the teams that have the most likely chance of getting to the elite 8. Had any of the ASC teams got to an Elite 8 since CTX that would certainly help our case.

Crappy example, but the only thing I can think of off the top of my head: American Idol "wildcards" -- they're not picking who can "get deep," rather people they think have a definite chance of winning it all.

Cal Lutheran has a lot of depth on the bump. They've played well in a much-improved SCIAC conference this year. Could TLU or Miss win a couple of games in the regional. YES. But are they likely to come out of that regional? Probably not. Neither team has the depth on the mound. Tyler, last year, that's a potentially different story.

I'm as big of an ASC-homer as anyone, and everything everyone is staying about the strength of the ASC is undeniably true. I think year in and year out it's in the top tier (3-4) of conferences.

JSG

Guy, let's take this farther.

UTT batted .253 in the McMurry series!  Wow!  What dominance!  What did it take for the Co-champs of the East to beat the #3 seed in the West at home?  Scoring the go-ahead run in the bottom of the 7th... and having to score the go ahead run in the bottom of the 8th... and again not holding the lead in the top of the 9th requiring them to win game 3 in the bottom of the 9th.

The ASC is in the Top 5 conferences of the country, just a notch below the NJAC and the LEC, with talent that is distributed amongst 6-8 quality teams every season.

[Ralph Turner]

This is UT-Dallas' OWP according to the Handbook.  This is why we do not compare favorably in the eyes of the committee when Pool C bids are granted.  I am sure that Mississippi College is not much different.

Opponent	Record	vs. MissColl	Revised Record	Revised W/L Percentage
CTX	19-16	3-2	16-14	.533
Trinity	23-18	1-3	23-17	.575
HSU	24-14	2-3	22-11	.667
Whittier	9-25	0-1	9-24	.273
TLU	28-13	0-4	28-9	.757
S'western	16-20	0-1	16-19	.457
LaColl	6-19	1-2	5-17	.227
UOz	13-23	1-2	12-21	.364
UTT	35-10	1-4	31-9	.775
Miss Coll	25-13	1-3	22-12	.647
AC	14-24	0-2	14-22	.389
LeTU	8-21	0-3	8-18	.308
McM	23-16	1-1	23-15	.605
ETBU	10-21	0-3	10-18	.357
Total	*	*	*	.4957

[BigPoppa]

This is UT-Dallas' OWP according to the Handbook.  This is why we do not compare favorably in the eyes of the committee when Pool C bids are granted.  I am sure that Mississippi College is not much different.

Opponent	Record	vs. MissColl	Revised Record	Revised W/L Percentage
CTX	19-16	3-2	16-14	.533
Trinity	23-18	1-3	23-17	.575
HSU	24-14	2-3	22-11	.667
Whittier	9-25	0-1	9-24	.273
TLU	28-13	0-4	28-9	.757
S'western	16-20	0-1	16-19	.457
LaColl	6-19	1-2	5-17	.227
UOz	13-23	1-2	12-21	.364
UTT	35-10	1-4	31-9	.775
Miss Coll	25-13	1-3	22-12	.647
AC	14-24	0-2	14-22	.389
LeTU	8-21	0-3	8-18	.308
McM	23-16	1-1	23-15	.605
ETBU	10-21	0-3	10-18	.357
Total	*	*	*	.4957

Ralph, great work. The numbers do not lie. SOS and OWP played a MAJOR part in the selections this year.