BB: ASC: American Southwest Conference

[HAMBONE]

im all for karma and doing things right on and off the field to keep the baseball gods happy....but i dont think karma or gods had anything to do with a 32-19 baseball game.  just to score 19 runs in a game is a feat.  need i say more?  there is gonna be 2 box scores for that 1 game when they finally come out.  At least everyone decided to swing the bat, heck i was I a DH, 32-19 actually sounds fun....that means about 9 abats apiece!  too bad it was a conf game.

well boys and girls...looks like we have a 5 team race.  remember the winner of the west hosts the conference tourney and the west regional is already scheduled @ McMurry....its too bad the rest of the indians season is on the road.  I know one thing, there are some guys absolutely swinging the bat well, with the pitching being as bad as it is this year, I think the hitting is much better all around than usual....Personally I think you have to be a better hitter to hit bad pitching consistently which is what all these 3-4-5 guys are doing for all of these teams...I do understand that weak hitters match up well against bad pitching but that just means that your mean, median, and mode decrease which is normally under the mendoza line. 

Those Nados need to go eat at UNDERWOODS for breakfast.  Chicken-fried steak and eggs!

[Bman3]

hambone, shut up with your "mean, median, mode" crap. what would decrease? definately not ERA's and definately not BA, HITS, RUNS, or RBI's. bad pitching is bad pitching. it does take patience and disapline from a hitter against bad pitching, thats a given. but i im not following you on that one.

and for anyone in the ASC that hasnt eaten at UNDERWOODS in Brownwood, it is a must.

[indian4life]

SU beat sul ross 6-5

[HAMBONE]

hambone, shut up with your "mean, median, mode" crap. what would decrease? definately not ERA's and definately not BA, HITS, RUNS, or RBI's. bad pitching is bad pitching. it does take patience and disapline from a hitter against bad pitching, thats a given. but i im not following you on that one.

and for anyone in the ASC that hasnt eaten at UNDERWOODS in Brownwood, it is a must.

Bman3 dont be mad because I am on the Junior Varsity and you are still a second-stringer. 

[Bman3]

Bman3 dont be mad because I am on the Junior Varsity and you are still a second-stringer. 
[/quote]

once again someone has to correct HAMBONE. I am still a starting Junior Varsity player and you are a Second-Stringer, and probably sill dont play

[Bman3]

HAMBONE, a former ASC player......is no longer living in the past. he was invited to play in a special "Invitation ONLY Game" at the Dell Diamond this Saturday. amazingly, he still had it going 6 for 6 with 3 singles, 2 doubles, and a TRIPLE. this was his first triple of his illustrious career. what a game. he faught hard for the cycle, but came up a HR short of the cycle against the 50 and Under Mens League Team. yes, 50 and Under!! but apparently they were really really really good, so dont let anyone mess with you about that HAMBONE.....i think you've still got it!

[MCM Gangster]

MCM in the first game won 19-5 then lost 11-10 to TLU. MCM took 2 of 3 from TLU

[HAMBONE]

HAMBONE, a former ASC player......is no longer living in the past. he was invited to play in a special "Invitation ONLY Game" at the Dell Diamond this Saturday. amazingly, he still had it going 6 for 6 with 3 singles, 2 doubles, and a TRIPLE. this was his first triple of his illustrious career. what a game. he faught hard for the cycle, but came up a HR short of the cycle against the 50 and Under Mens League Team. yes, 50 and Under!! but apparently they were really really really good, so dont let anyone mess with you about that HAMBONE.....i think you've still got it!

Bman3 im not sure how you got those stats but at least they are accurate...i cant even get a hold of box scores from institutions that charge $25,000 a year for school.  but yes i did go 6 for 6 today.  like i said before...mediocre pitching matches up well with mediocre hitting...very few have what it takes to hit bad pitching consistently...

[HAMBONE]

my prayers go out to the Jacoby family with the loss of Mr. Fred Jacoby today.  For those that don't know Fred was the Commissioner of the ASC for 10 years before retiring in 2006.  full story link below.  I had to opportunity to befriend Mr. Jacoby during my 4 years @ CTX serving on the ASC Athletic Advisory Committee, he was a great man and loved helping student athletes. RIP

Fred Jacoby

Modified for formatting -- Thanks for the link. Yes, he will be missed.

[Just_Some_Guy]

Thought I'd follow the defense numbers with a list of the top 10 pitchers in the ASC so far according to DICE. The point here is to evaluate pitchers separately from the defense behind them, so the formula only includes walks, strikeouts, home runs, and hit batters, since those results derive solely from the interaction of the pitcher and the batter. It does not adjust for park effects, the quality of the opposition, or for groundball/flyball tendencies.

To add my two cents to this discussion, here are those 7 pitchers from above ranked by DICE (I left a link in a post on the last page), along with their team's defensive efficiency.

R.B. Garza, UMHB - 1.96 DICE/.693 defensive efficiency.
Kyle Barton, HSU - 2.39/.678
Cody Curry, MCM - 2.79/.650
Adam Garcia, HPU - 3.74/.636
Kevin Jones, SU - 3.87/.607
Ben Whiteley, CTX - 4.00/.664
Logan Hull, TLU - 4.13/.636

Also, IMO, Whiteley's not even the best pitcher on the CTX staff, Szkotak is.

CUAFan,

I really enjoy the statistical analysis you provide and the extra dimension it provides for discussion. I also think there's some relevance to DICE #'s and a pitcher's success, though I probably agree more with Tippett in that BABIP (Batting Average on Balls In Play), though more volatile on a year to year basis, is still partially the result of the pitcher's skill.

And while DICE technically measures things that aren't influenced by a defense I would argue that a pitcher is very often influenced by his defense. If your defense is fielding .975 do you think a pitcher feels more comfortable working ahead, throwing a lot of strikes and letting the opposition put the ball in play? If they're fielding .935, might that same pitcher try to bare more of the of the burden and throw more pitches in an effort to induce more strikeouts, but invariably walking more guys as well?

And isn't the home run aspect at least partially influenced by the park effects? I'd be the first to say that CUA pitchers are at a disadvantage when it comes to giving up HR.

In other words, while I really do appreciate the contribution of DICE, I myself will probably never look at them with the same credibility that I give other stats. To me, a pitcher that strikes out 0 hitters, but throws soft ground balls all day is successfully doing his job on the mound.

What about a guy like Pedro Martinez that actually has pretty impeccable control, but is consistently near the top of the MLB in HBP. I realize he's the exception, but he's hitting guys on purpose and it's proved to be an effective tactic for him.

How would Nolan Ryan rank on the DICE scale with all the walks he gave up?

To me the DICE stat (and the similar stat you produced last year) just didn't speak to me because I could then, and still can give a valid argument as to why Adam Enloe was a  better pitcher than Jonathan Miller (despite his awesome K/BB ratio) in conference play last year. That's meant to take nothing away from the phenomal season Miller had and the way he carried a CUA team that was down last year, but with two blind stat lines I just don't see how many people could feasibly say Miller was better in conference (at least not without using DICE ;-) )

As far as Szkotak goes, I don't know that I disagree provided he's spotting his soft stuff well, but Whiteley's numbers would indicate that he's probably been the better pitcher thus far this year (at least in terms of success against the opposition).

JSG

   

[CUAfan]

JSG, I would freely admit that DICE (and other statistics like it) are far from perfect. Studies have made it clear (as you point out) that pitchers do have some influence on their BABIP, as well as that certain types of pitchers (i.e., flyball, groundball, etc.) tend to have certain types of BABIPs. Unfortunately, that kind of flyball/groundball data would be tedious to gather for D3 pitchers, and I have been unable to find a formula that includes hits and the like that I am comfortable with. I would much rather use the STUFF stat that Baseball Prospectus uses, but I haven't quite figured out how to make it work in Excel. Given the above, I think that DICE is a useful tool for analyzing pitchers, but is definitely not the last word. I never saw Enloe pitch last year, but I do know that when hitters made contact on Miller, a lot of them were line drives or hard grounders, both of which are more difficult to field than a fly ball (all else equal). Perhaps Enloe gave up more easy fly balls or soft grounders than Miller, which may have given him the edge.

On a side note, I figured up pitcher-specific defensive efficiencies to help address this, so that it is easier to see which pitchers get more help from their defense (though the resulting efficiency is definitely influenced by the pitcher's GB/FB tendencies). One guy (I forget who) is getting no help at all...when he pitches, the defensive efficiency is only .456...meaning that over half of the balls in the field of play go for hits...just terrible.

In a couple days, I'll have a set of region-wide team rankings using second-order wins that you may find interesting (prior to this weekend Puget Sound was in the top 5, and I don't think I've seen you mention them at all).

[Bman3]

you two can argue DICE, STUFF, BABIP, SIPLX, CRAP or any other kind of quantitative statistical method formula you can plug into excel. the best way to evaluate a pitcher is to WATCH him perform on the mound. is there a formula for placing an inside fastball on the black with the bases loaded in a tie ballgame with a full count? i'll take that pitcher all day, the guy who gets it done when it counts the most. there are PLAYERS, and then there are GAMERS. players play and gamers WIN!!!

[Blackcat00]

You hit it on the head Bman. Technology these days still cant determine the mindset of what some pitchers have in the game. 3-2 offspeed, having the balls to throw inside and that aggressive mentality. Like its said ,you have throwers and u have pitchers and thats why the scouts go to the games.

[Just_Some_Guy]

On a side note, I figured up pitcher-specific defensive efficiencies to help address this, so that it is easier to see which pitchers get more help from their defense (though the resulting efficiency is definitely influenced by the pitcher's GB/FB tendencies).

Which I did appreciate. Also, it's definitely not a coincidence that the teams at the bottom of the ASC have (for the most part) poor defensive efficiencies.

In a couple days, I'll have a set of region-wide team rankings using second-order wins that you may find interesting (prior to this weekend Puget Sound was in the top 5, and I don't think I've seen you mention them at all).

Definitely looking forward to it.

Puget Sound was 8-3 prior to this weekend, but 5 of those 8 wins were against a weak Whitman team that is 2-14 and dead last in the NWC. 2 more were against a Whitworth team that's 5-13 (they split the series 2-2). They got hammered by the Linfield team that is currently first in the conference, and then they got beat by the Redlands and pretty marginal Occidental team this weekend.

I realize those two were after what you had initially put together.

I think they're probably the 5th or 6th best team in that 9-team conference; nonethless, like I said before, I'm still looking forward to whatever you put together.

JSG 

[Just_Some_Guy]

you two can argue DICE, STUFF, BABIP, SIPLX, CRAP or any other kind of quantitative statistical method formula you can plug into excel.

Isn't that part of what makes baseball fun to discuss?

The best way to evaluate a pitcher is to WATCH him perform on the mound. is there a formula for placing an inside fastball on the black with the bases loaded in a tie ballgame with a full count? i'll take that pitcher all day, the guy who gets it done when it counts the most. there are PLAYERS, and then there are GAMERS. players play and gamers WIN!!!

I agree 100% with this statement. There is definitely something to be said about a guy that pitches the way you and Blackcat have both mentioned, provided they're doing it in an intelligent way.

I'll take the savvy, tender-armed veteran throwing because it is what he has to do for his team to win over some guy throwing a flat 90 with awful offspeed stuff.

Give me the guy that starts on Friday, pitches a complete game and comes back Saturday evening and wants to pitch the 9th in game three for the save with a playoff spot on the line. I'm not advocating overwork to the point of injury under any circumstances, but special pitchers tend to step up in big situations and you alluded that fact.

You hit it on the head Bman. Technology these days still cant determine the mindset of what some pitchers have in the game. 3-2 offspeed, having the balls to throw inside and that aggressive mentality. Like its said ,you have throwers and u have pitchers and thats why the scouts go to the games.

I'd argue that scouts sometimes go to the games to check out a thrower. Maybe he throws 92-94 with an effortless motion, but has no idea where it's going. Chances are the scout might be willing to take a late round flyer on that guy don't you think?

But again, I understand the point you're trying to illustrate as well, and I whole-heartily agree with the sentiment.

JSG