BB: ODAC: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[narch]

If only Bridgewater was in the USA South...

BC versus...
No. 1 Methodist	1-0
No. 2 N.C. Wesleyan	1-0
No. 3 Ferrum	0-1-1
No. 4 Greensboro	1-0
No. 5 CNU	1-0
No. 6 Shenandoah	1-0
No. 7 Averett	2-0
USA South	7-1-1

*USAC rankings are based on the final regular season standings

The Eagles have won by an average of three runs per game versus the USA South schools.

So can it be argued that the USAC has the better conference, but Bridgewater has the best squad?

Bridgewater concludes their 2006 USAC season with a rescheduled game against Greensboro tomorrow (Thursday).

kid, it can be argued, but i don't think it can be argued successfully because of the disparities i've already outlined in pitching depth requirements - bc played most (if not all) of those usasac schools mid-week, most (if not all) of the usasac schools had played 27 innings of conference baseball the previous week and most (if not all) had 27 innings of conference baseball to look forward to in the upcoming weekend, which means they were pitching #4 and #5 starters - bc had typically played 16 or 18 innings of conference baseball (in a weaker conference) and had 16 or 18 innings of conference baseball (in a weaker conference) to look forward to, meaning they could typically match up a #3 starter vs. the usasac teams - you know enough about baseball to understand that there is typically a pretty significant drop-off from the #3 to the #4/#5 starter, especially in college

i wish it were as easy as saying "bc is 7-1 vs. the usasac, so they're obviously better than any team in the usasac", but it's not - the eagles may be better, but i don't think the regular season is necessarily indicative, especially when you consider my points above - if bc were to play 18 games vs. the usasac, matching #1 vs. #1, #2 vs. #2, etc. and they had the best record, i'd be willing to concede, but they haven't

[narch]

kid - i'll break it down even more for you

i used number of starts to determine if a pitcher was the #1, #2, #3, etc. pitcher for their team - i know this isn't PERFECT, but it's as good as i can get without asking a coach what his rotational order is

in the 9 games vs. the usasac, bc pitched read, shaffer and nolen (who were #1,2 and 3 on the bc squad in starts) a total of 7 times - brinkley pitched once (taking a loss) and greene pitched once (they are #4 and #5 in starts for bc) - the usasac teams pitched their #1, #2 or #3 pitcher a total of 4 times - the usasac also pitched their #4 once, their #5 3 times and their #7 once...these aren't pitchers that bc would see if they were playing the usasac on the weekend, i can assure you of that

this doesn't even mention the fact that usasac coaches are hesitant to go to their top long reliever mid-week, either

bc has had a great regular season...let's hold off on the "they'd win the usasac" talk until we see what they do beyond the regular season

[Matt Barnhart (kid)]

narch,

I understand.  You've outlined those discrepancies before.

Only reason I threw the "7-1-1 = best team among USAC" out there is because of the season-long USAC vs ODAC record.  Same discrepancies can be argued there as well, so why even compare the conferences against one another?  What does "USAC leads the ODAC 29-22-1" even mean or prove?  If anything, it's just for giggles.  And if so, then my "BC is 7-1-1 vs the USAC" carries just as much weight.  None.  However...

...it's not just pitching that wins a game.  There's also batting and fielding, which is dictated by pretty much the same guys every game.

Today, Bridgewater ran their USAC record to 8-1-1, defeating Greensboro (the USAC tournament runner-up) 5-4.  The Eagles started Casey Hartman, who came in having pitched 14.0 innings with an ERA of 4.50.  The Pride started their top ace (ERA-wise) in Kit Mock, who had pitched 79.2 innings and had an ERA of 3.28 coming into the game.

I'll admit that there might be huge discrepancies when looking at two teams head-to-head (because they only played one to two games against one another).  But to say there's enough discrepancy when comparing one team to seven opponents (and a total of 10 games) to say that an 8-1-1 record doesn't say anything?  Not sure I agree.  Today's Bridgewater-Greensboro game is an example.  One of Greensboro's top pitchers versus Bridgewater's fourth or fifth one, but the Eagles came away with the victory because of the Pride committing an error and a balk in the 8th inning, which scored two runs for BC.  That wasn't pitching ... that was fielding.

[narch]

kid - there is an old baseball mantra that says "good pitching beats good hitting" - there is another that says "you're only as good as your next starter" - and while hitting and fielding are certainly critical components of the game, these pitching truisms apply to every level of baseball (beyond t-ball, anyway )

the odac vs. usasac "scoreboard" started when there were some posts prior to the season comparing relative strength of the conferences...if anything i think the winning record, compiled with the pitching discrepancies proves that the usasac is the superior conference, but you're right...it's mostly for giggles

and, while mock may have the best era on the gc staff, keever is the guy they would pitch in the most important game and bray was the guy they went to as their #2, so technically mock is the gc #3 (although mock was clearly more effective than either keever or bray this season)

[Ralph Turner]

...
and, while mock may have the best era on the gc staff, keever is the guy they would pitch in the most important game and bray was the guy they went to as their #2, so technically mock is the gc #3 (although mock was clearly more effective than either keever or bray this season)

Therefore, it seems that Mock is an above average #3 pitcher in the rotations being considered.  "Ninety percent of coaching is half-mental."  If you can juggle your rotation to take advantage of their strengths and win more games, then that is what coaching is all about.

(I can't remember is that truism was in Bull Durham either.  Insert  emoticon scratching one's head.)

[Matt Barnhart (kid)]

the odac vs. usasac "scoreboard" started when there were some posts prior to the season comparing relative strength of the conferences...if anything i think the winning record, compiled with the pitching discrepancies proves that the usasac is the superior conference, but you're right...it's mostly for giggles

C'mon ... you can't have it both ways.  How are pitching discrepancies when USAC and ODAC schools go against one another any different from when Bridgewater faces USAC schools?

Point being, the USAC isn't superior to the ODAC if Bridgewater isn't superior to the USAC.  If the same pitching discrepancies exist in both cases, then I think 8-1-1 can be argued a lot better (meaning, BC would be the best USAC team) than can 29-23-1 (meaning, the USAC being better than the ODAC).

[narch]

"Ninety percent of coaching is half-mental." 

(I can't remember is that truism was in Bull Durham either.  Insert  emoticon scratching one's head.)

that's a yogi-ism

[narch]

kid - if the usasac schools were throwing their #3 and #4 pitchers against the odac schools (as the odac schools do against the usasac schools, by and large), then i would say the two conferences are pretty equal because of the head to head record)...it's simply not happening because of the 3 game, 27 inning weekends in the usasac - the fact that the usasac has a 6 game advantage AND has to pitch guys who are low on the depth chart in these match ups proves (to me) that the usasac is a better conference - bc MIGHT be a better team than any in the usasac, but i'm not ready to say that until i see them match up against top pitching in the usasac...bc has faced the usasac #1,2, or 3 on 5 occassions and they're 4-1, but two of those games were against au's #1 and #2 pitchers, and no offense to those players, but au has won a grand total of 13 games this year (5 of which came vs. the odac and 4 of which came vs. the usasac)

it's great that bc beat the gc #3 with their #4, but the bottom line is that in 10 games vs. the usasac, bc has thrown their #1,2 or 3 starter 7 times and the usasac opponent has thrown their #1,2, or 3 starter 5 times now (along with a #4, 2 #5's and a #7)

[Matt Barnhart (kid)]

[...] the bottom line is that in 10 games vs. the usasac, bc has thrown their #1,2 or 3 starter 7 times and the usasac opponent has thrown their #1,2, or 3 starter 5 times now (along with a #4, 2 #5's and a #7)

I don't think the difference between 7 times and 5 times is enough disparity, sorry.

Heck if I'm going to go through 53 box scores to find out what pitchers started those USAC/ODAC games, but you can't tell me that pitching disparities aren't showing up in those matchups as there are (apparently) in the BC/USAC games.

I would assume that when ODAC schools (like the USAC) play non-conference games, they aren't throwing their best pitching out there (for whatever reasons, like the USAC playing the conference three-game series every week).  But who knows, coaches differ on how they set and use their pitching rotations, so it could be that Bridgewater has a set rotation, and it just so happens that their top three guys happened to play USAC schools a lot.

All I know from looking over some box scores is that Greensboro's Mock (who BC faced and beat) was the one who started for the Pride in the USAC championship game.  Again, does that mean he's their ace?  Probably not.  It's more so a he was the next pitcher due up in their rotation (and he hadn't pitched in the previous three USAC tournament games).

[Matt Barnhart (kid)]

I took a look at, who in my opinion, are the ODAC's top six aces (who also happen to be from the conference's top six teams) and if they pitched against any USAC schools.  This is what I found...

• R-MC's Travis Beazley (1.57 ERA, 8-1) started against Averett's No. 2 (and won)
• GC's Dave Whigham (2.52 ERA, 7-2) started against no USAC schools
• BC's Ricky Read (2.84 ERA, 7-0) started against Averett No. 2 (and won)
• VWC's Zach Baker (2.48 ERA, 3-3) started against no USAC schools
• H-SC's John Schoenholtz (4.37 ERA, 6-2) started against no USAC schools
• W&L's Clayton Edwards (3.95 ERA, 6-1) started against no USAC schools

It should also be noted that when Beazley and Read pitched against Averett, it was first game of the season for both R-MC and BC (so naturally you start your top ace).

And by the way, when Bridgewater defeated the USAC conference champion N.C. Wesleyan, the Eagles pitched their No. 7 guy (Nolan Shaffer - 5.74 ERA, 2-5 record) versus the Bishop's Hunter Smith (2.06 ERA and 1-1 record in five starts).  It seems that would make Smith the Bishop's No. 3 guy (after Rice and Robertson).

I'm more convinced now, following our banter, that there really aren't any significant enough pitching discrepancies when the ODAC faces the USAC and when BC faces the USAC to not say that the USAC, overall, is better than the ODAC ... and that BC, generally speaking, is one of the best - if not the best - out of all the USAC schools.

[narch]

I took a look at, who in my opinion, are the ODAC's top six aces (who also happen to be from the conference's top six teams) and if they pitched against any USAC schools.  This is what I found...

• R-MC's Travis Beazley (1.57 ERA, 8-1) started against Averett's No. 2 (and won)
 

clearly rmc's #1 - leads team in starts - started first game of season - in addition to beazley, rmc's #3 (hartt) started twice vs. the usasac
[li]GC's Dave Whigham (2.52 ERA, 7-2) started against no USAC schools[/li] clearly gcq's #1 - tied for team lead in starts - started first game of season - while whigham didn't start vs. a usasac school, collier (gc's #2) and raines (gc's #3) did make 3 starts vs. the usasac
[li]BC's Ricky Read (2.84 ERA, 7-0) started against Averett No. 2 (and won)[/li] clearly bc's #1 - 2nd on team in starts - started first game of season - in addition to read's start vs. usasac schools, shaffer and nolen (#2 and #3 on the team in starts) pitched 6 times vs. usasac schools
[li]VWC's Zach Baker (2.48 ERA, 3-3) started against no USAC schools[/li] clearly NOT vwc's #1, 2 or 3 starter - 5th on team in starts with just 2 - rivera, renfrow and hendrix (who were 1/2/3 in starts for vwc did start 6 times vs. usasac schools, though)
[li]H-SC's John Schoenholtz (4.37 ERA, 6-2) started against no USAC schools[/li]clearly hsc's #1 - 1st on team in starts - started first game of season - the #3 for hsc, hanky (who started game 2 of the season) did make 2 starts vs. the usasac
[li]W&L's Clayton Edwards (3.95 ERA, 6-1) started against no USAC schools[/li]i would say edwards is the #2 or #3 pitcher for w&l...he's in a 3 way tie for the most starts with brownlow and parker, and started game 3 of the season...besides, w&l played just one game vs. the usasac
[/list]

And by the way, when Bridgewater defeated the USAC conference champion N.C. Wesleyan, the Eagles pitched their No. 7 guy (Nolan Shaffer - 5.74 ERA, 2-5 record) versus the Bishop's Hunter Smith (2.06 ERA and 1-1 record in five starts).  It seems that would make Smith the Bishop's No. 3 guy (after Rice and Robertson).

I'm more convinced now, following our banter, that there really aren't any significant enough pitching discrepancies when the ODAC faces the USAC and when BC faces the USAC to not say that the USAC, overall, is better than the ODAC ... and that BC, generally speaking, is one of the best - if not the best - out of all the USAC schools.

kid - you call shaffer bc's #7 starter, but he leads the team in starts and started the first game of the season...i'm confused  - conversly, hunter smith was 5th on the ncwc team in starts and rarely pitched (and never started) on usasac weekends...how can you call him the bishop's #3 guy? - i think that the number of starts a player gets should tell you a little about where the coaching staff thinks he fits into their rotation

you're correct that mock was a weekend pitcher for the pride, but he was typically the guy that pitched on sunday after the saturday double header, meaning (to me) he was #3 in their rotation

[Matt Barnhart (kid)]

narch,

Umm, I don't think you got the point of my last post.

This was the lead in; "I took a look at, who in my opinion, are the ODAC's top six aces..."

That's all I was looking at, not other team's #1s or the top six ODAC team's #2s or #3s.

The point of my post was to say that when you look at the top six pitchers in the ODAC, they faced the USAC twice, and both of those times were the first games of their respective school's seasons (so it made sense that they start those games).

So that answers all that stuff you put in red beside my points.  Thanks for making my post more colorful, but you missed my point.  And yes, Baker isn't a "starter" for W&L, but he's definitely (numbers-wise) their best pitcher.

Then regarding this;

kid - you call shaffer bc's #7 starter, but he leads the team in starts and started the first game of the season...i'm confused 

Umm, leading the team in starts means poo, and no, he didn't start the first game of the season (as I pointed out in my last post, Ricky Read - our No. 1 pitcher - did against Averett).  Look at Shaffer's stats, bud.  He has the worst ERA of any starting pitcher, and we have seven who have started at least two games.  He also has the worst record at 2-5, not to mention his opponent's batting average is .335, the highest of any pitcher on the team.

conversly, hunter smith was 5th on the ncwc team in starts and rarely pitched (and never started) on usasac weekends...how can you call him the bishop's #3 guy?

OK, good point.  Five appearances (all starts) and 35.0 innings pitched.  But look what he has done; best ERA on the team (2.06) and lowest opponent batting average (.185).  He's no slouch.

i think that the number of starts a player gets should tell you a little about where the coaching staff thinks he fits into their rotation

I agree, only in that someone like Hunter might not be the kind of pitcher that could even give you a quality five-plus innings.  He might be only effective coming in the middle of a game and giving you two or three innings of work.  That doesn't mean he isn't one of your better pitchers.

you're correct that mock was a weekend pitcher for the pride, but he was typically the guy that pitched on sunday after the saturday double header, meaning (to me) he was #3 in their rotation

Umm, that's what I said;

And by the way, when Bridgewater defeated the USAC conference champion N.C. Wesleyan, the Eagles pitched their No. 7 guy (Nolan Shaffer - 5.74 ERA, 2-5 record) versus the Bishop's Hunter Smith (2.06 ERA and 1-1 record in five starts).  It seems that would make Smith the Bishop's No. 3 guy (after Rice and Robertson).

[mybleedinghands]

bridgewater is the best team out of the two conferences and the USAC is a better overall conference than the odac.

[Matt Barnhart (kid)]

FYI, that'll be my last post on the whole BC vs USAC topic (unless there is some new twist put on it).  We keep going around in circles (I'm sure readers are just yawning).

It's fine that you think it's important to look at where a pitcher ranks on there team, but honestly, on most Division III teams, there are one or two true aces, then everyone else.  There really is no way to say there's a No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, No. 4 and so on.  There is basically a No. 1, maybe a No. 1½, and then everyone else.  Not to mention a No. 6 on one team (i.e. Bridgewater) might be way better than a No. 2 on another (i.e. Eastern Mennonite).  So you can't compare 1s, 2s, 3s, etc.

But anywho, go ahead and throw in a last word and let's move on.

Hopefully BC makes the NCAA tournament so they can possibly face N.C. Wesleyan or an at-large USAC school.

[Matt Barnhart (kid)]

bridgewater is the best team out of the two conferences and the USAC is a better overall conference than the odac.

scottie,

You just being a homer (like me), or do you see my point(s)?