BB: WIAC: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[jknezek]

I'll make just one post on this topic and declare myself a W&L alum, so I have no skin in this game. The first point is there is nothing in the D3 bylaws about school size or public/private institutions. It's not a consideration and it doesn't have anything to do with the D3 definition except in our heads. Second, nothing in the D3 bylaws creates an equal athletic environment. No facilities, attendance, financial, or participation requirements. The lack of scholarships plus a certain number of teams and governing body approval is all that governs D3. If Ohio State wanted to abide by the D3 strictures regarding scholarships, they would be welcome. If you would like some other restrictions added, that's different, but right now none exist.

Finally, if you look at the Learfield Director's Cup, which awards the top athletic department in each of the divisions, you will find that while UWW, and some of the other WIAC schools do well, none have won the Cup in recent years. I think UWW will come close this year, they might actually get it, but they haven't dominated across D3 sports the way other schools such as Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, Wash U and Emory have done in recent years. UWW has neither been as consistent nor as strong. UWW's best finish so far was last year, at 4, and their worst since 05/06 was 32nd in 06/07.

They aren't even the best juggernaut in D3, though they are very, very good. If you aren't advocating some of the NESCAC schools to go up a division, since they are the true D3 sports juggernauts, then you are back to an argument about size and public schools. Which, as I started with, is not mentioned anywhere in the current D3 bylaws. So that whole argument simply exists in your head, not in any useful facts.

Enjoy the argument folks, secure in the knowledge that it has been gone over and over and over again in the recent past.

[Spence]

I bet if some 50k enrollment school tried to join D3 that you'd find you're wrong about them being welcome.

UAA and NESCAC schools fit with the profile of D-III. Just because they're good at doing so doesn't put them in the same category as schools that stick out like a sore thumb in D-III.

[02 Warhawk]

I bet if some 50k enrollment school tried to join D3 that you'd find you're wrong about them being welcome.

UAA and NESCAC schools fit with the profile of D-III. Just because they're good at doing so doesn't put them in the same category as schools that stick out like a sore thumb in D-III.

Where can I find this DIII profile?

[

[MasterJedi]

I bet if some 50k enrollment school tried to join D3 that you'd find you're wrong about them being welcome.

UAA and NESCAC schools fit with the profile of D-III. Just because they're good at doing so doesn't put them in the same category as schools that stick out like a sore thumb in D-III.

Where can I find this DIII profile?

Small, private schools that price gouge their students for the status of graduating from a private school since most of them outside of the few that are nationally known, are just as good as public state schools.

[AO]

Finally, if you look at the Learfield Director's Cup, which awards the top athletic department in each of the divisions, you will find that while UWW, and some of the other WIAC schools do well, none have won the Cup in recent years. I think UWW will come close this year, they might actually get it, but they haven't dominated across D3 sports the way other schools such as Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, Wash U and Emory have done in recent years. UWW has neither been as consistent nor as strong. UWW's best finish so far was last year, at 4, and their worst since 05/06 was 32nd in 06/07.

They aren't even the best juggernaut in D3, though they are very, very good. If you aren't advocating some of the NESCAC schools to go up a division, since they are the true D3 sports juggernauts, then you are back to an argument about size and public schools. Which, as I started with, is not mentioned anywhere in the current D3 bylaws. So that whole argument simply exists in your head, not in any useful facts.

That's fine that the director's cup considers all sports to be equal, but we all know that they're not.  Teams move to D1 seeking exposure and money generated by Football and Men's Basketball.   

Perhaps Whitewater's success will cause the NCAA to reconsider their ban on allowing individual sports choose their own division apart from the rest of the athletic department.  The current rule clearly hasn't stopped a small number of schools from dominating the rest of the field.

[02 Warhawk]

Then how does Duke compete in D1? Size is mostly irrelevant.

D1 is completely different from D3 in that regard. Even high vs. low D1 there's a difference. UCF and its huge enrollment has more potential as a program than Tulsa and its tiny one.

At D3, the difference in size and public status is access to resources, and ease of same. It's not the only one, but it's one that is pretty directly correlated to size.

ETA: Duke has one of the highest budgets and strongest revenue streams in all of college basketball because of their media and marketing presence. None of that plays in D3.

So does Mount Union Football have some media and marketing presence that the rest of DIII doesn't know about?

[Spence]

Not everyone can survive on government subsidies and gouging taxpayers.

At least at private schools the student chooses to pay.

Of course the implications that the publics are "just as good" as the vast majority of D-III privates is just ridiculous.

US News rankings of Midwestern regional universities...
John Carroll (7), Elmhurst (11), Hamline (11), Dominican (13), North Central (13), Baldwin Wallace (17), Otterbein (17), Bethel (21),  MSOE (21), Webster (21), Augsburg (26), UW-Lax (26), UW-Eau Claire (30), St. Scholastica (33), Capital (35), UW-Stevens Point (42), UW-Whitewater (42), Heidelberg (53), North Park (53), Muskingum (57), UW-Stout (57), Mt. St. Joseph (60), UW-Oshkosh (65), Concordia WI (68), UW-Platteville (72), UW-River Falls (72), Concordia IL (83), Marian (86), UW-Superior (92), Fontbonne (102), Lakeland (108).

WIAC median: 57
Non-WIAC median: 29.5

[Spence]

Then how does Duke compete in D1? Size is mostly irrelevant.

D1 is completely different from D3 in that regard. Even high vs. low D1 there's a difference. UCF and its huge enrollment has more potential as a program than Tulsa and its tiny one.

At D3, the difference in size and public status is access to resources, and ease of same. It's not the only one, but it's one that is pretty directly correlated to size.

ETA: Duke has one of the highest budgets and strongest revenue streams in all of college basketball because of their media and marketing presence. None of that plays in D3.

So does Mount Union Football have some media and marketing presence that the rest of DIII doesn't know about?

What part of "none of that plays in D3" escaped you? Obviously, not really, which is exactly the point. Small schools in D1 do have access to that as an option to mitigate their size and increase their budget. You seem to be presuming that Mount Union doesn't, which is fine. If that's true, we can then very reasonably presume no one else does either, since if anyone would be argued to have that advantage as a private, it would be Mount Union.

[02 Warhawk]

Historically, the most successful football, baseball, basketball, ect. DIII programs have all been private schools (not public). UWW has experienced most of their success in these three sports just over the past 10 years. But have had the same enrollment for decades now.

As good as UWW has been in football, Mount Union has been better and more consistent over the past 10-15 years.

I'll consider this argument the day public schools consistently start meeting each other in the Stagg Bowl, CWS, etc. Or if the NJAC starts dominating because of their large public shool enrollments.

[Spence]

Hisorically, the most succesfull football, baseball, basketball, ect. DIII programs have all been private schools (not public). UWW has experienced most of their success in these three sports just over the past 10 years. But have had the same enrollment for decades now.

You must think everyone is on crack.

UW schools have 11 national titles in the last 31 years in men's basketball. No private has won more than 2 in that time. Must be some gender equity issues over there though since the women have won just 3. Maybe they aren't getting the same benefits.

For publics to meet in the championships, basically champions of 2 of 4 conferences would have to be the last 2 standing (LEC, NJAC, SUNYAC, WIAC). As unlikely as that might seem, it's happened several times before in baseball; 2005, 1998, 1993, 1991, 1987. Even without an NJAC team, there were 3 in Appleton this year. There were 3 last year as well (no Cortland).

At least one public has been in the championship game 20 times since 1980.

I think that's a pretty high level of consistency in a sport that has had 1 repeat champion in the last 30+ years.

[02 Warhawk]

Hisorically, the most succesfull football, baseball, basketball, ect. DIII programs have all been private schools (not public). UWW has experienced most of their success in these three sports just over the past 10 years. But have had the same enrollment for decades now.

You must think everyone is on crack.

UW schools have 11 national titles in the last 31 years in men's basketball. No private has won more than 2 in that time. Must be some gender equity issues over there though since the women have won just 3. Maybe they aren't getting the same benefits.

So because women's b-ball (or any other DIII sport outside men's Bball for that matter) doesn't fit into your argument, you assume it has something to do with gender inequality?

[Spence]

Hisorically, the most succesfull football, baseball, basketball, ect. DIII programs have all been private schools (not public). UWW has experienced most of their success in these three sports just over the past 10 years. But have had the same enrollment for decades now.

You must think everyone is on crack.

UW schools have 11 national titles in the last 31 years in men's basketball. No private has won more than 2 in that time. Must be some gender equity issues over there though since the women have won just 3. Maybe they aren't getting the same benefits.

So because women's b-ball (or any other DIII sport outside men's Bball for that matter) doesn't fit into your argument, you assume it has something to do with gender inequality?

No sport outside men's basketball, eh? See above. Myth busted.

[bleedpurple]

Here's the bottom line Spence, Jackson5, et al. UW-W and UW-W fans have to justify NOTHING to you. You talk about things you have set up in your mind (what D-III was "designed for" and a "profile of D-III"). 

The athletes that compete against UW-W don't see them being as dominant as you do.  I think it is a highlight game for most kids in most programs.

You can keep trying to diminish what UW-W is accomplishing. My advice for UW-W fans is to not take the bait.  Whining on the same day that history is made doesn't deserve the attention we have given it. 

[wildcat11]

Here's the bottom line Spence. UW-W and UW-W fans have to justify NOTHING to you. You talk about things you have set up in your mind (what D-III was "designed for" and a "profile of D-III"). 

The athletes that compete against UW-W don't see them being as dominant as you do.  I think it is a highlight game for most kids in most programs.

You can keep trying to diminish what UW-W is accomplishing. My advice for UW-W fans is to not take the bait.  Whining on the same day that history is made doesn't deserve the attention we have given it.

[gordonmann]

The only thing that unites Division III schools is they don't offer scholarships.  Look across the landscape and you'll find public schools (small and large), large private research-based schools, small elite private schools, rich schools, poor schools, etc.  There isn't a unifying approach across all of them, which is why some of them have talked about forming a Division IV that has more limits on athletic competition.

To that end, there's no reason UW-Whitewater should leave Division III.  They don't offer scholarships and that's the major prerequisite to being a Division III school.

UW-Whitewater should be celebrated for what it has achieved.  Along with the football, baseball and basketball winners, don't forget that the women's basketball team finished third out of 400+ schools, the softball team finished third in the NCAA tournament and the women's gymnastics teams won a national championship outside the NCAA's purview.

That said, I think it's also fair to discuss whether UW-Whitewater has a unique set of institutional advantages, in addition to having outstanding athletes, great coaches and a little bit of luck here and there. It's too pat an answer to say, "Whitewater wins because they want it more...their athletes are better...they work harder" (none of which I've read on this page anyway).  Success is usually a mix of talent, hard work and fortunate circumstances.  The existence of one doesn't negate the need for the other two.

That doesn't mean they'll win all the time or that they should get out of Division III.  If Williams makes one or two plays in the men's basketball final or Mary Hardin-Baylor does in the football semifinals, we're not even having this discussion.  And it's probably better to have that discussion a weeks removed from Whitewater's victory so an honest question doesn't get confused as sour grapes.

One last thought.

For those who say UW-Whitewater isn't an athletic power because it hasn't won the Director's Cup -- or that the NESCAC schools are Division III juggernauts because they always dominate the Top 10  in those standings -- you need to look at the Cup's criteria.  The Director's Cup is only a good guage of Division III athletic program's strength to the extent that you equate variety of sports with strength of a program. 

The Cup counts performance in 18 sports (9 men, 9 women) including men's golf, men's and women's lacrosse, women's rowing, women's water polo, men's volleyball. women's field hockey, fencing and men's and women's ice hockey.  I think we'd all consider UW-Whitewater to have a strong sports program and they have none of those sports.  So it'll be tough for them (or most schools outside New England) to ever win the Director's Cup.