BB: WIAC: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Brian R. Carroll]

Congrats to UWW on winning the D-3 "triple crown." Congratulations are also in order for the UWL men's athletic teams, which edged UWW for the WIAC all sports title. The UWW women narrowly outpointed UWL for the women's crown, and UWW won the overall title, again by a small margin over UWL. Congratulations to all champions from all the WIAC schools.

[02 Warhawk]

At least one public has been in the championship game 20 times since 1980.

So since 1980, more times than not, a private school has to play a public school for the championship?

Oh the humanity!!!!!

Very well said, Gordan.

Bleed....you know I can't help myself when it comes to topics like these. It makes for a good debate, and passes time at work 

[bleedpurple]

At least one public has been in the championship game 20 times since 1980.

So since 1980, more times than not, a private school has to play a public school for the championship?

Oh the humanity!!!!!

Very well said, Gordan.

Bleed....you know I can't help myself when it comes to topics like these. It makes for a good debate, and passes time at work 

Have at it, brother.

Great post, Gordon. +k

I would probably suggest that when an "honest question" is asked in discussing the matter, perhaps less inflammatory words may lead to a more productive discussion.

"So is Wisconsin-Whitewater ready to admit that they don't belong in D3 yet or do they still want to pretend that D3 was designed for Public universities with 5 figure enrollments?"

To me, that DOES smack of sour grapes.  It also presents a false premise that size and public/private are somehow a part of D3's "design". 

[Spence]

Congrats to UWW on winning the D-3 "triple crown." Congratulations are also in order for the UWL men's athletic teams, which edged UWW for the WIAC all sports title. The UWW women narrowly outpointed UWL for the women's crown, and UWW won the overall title, again by a small margin over UWL. Congratulations to all champions from all the WIAC schools.

UWL also has the highest academic standards of all UW branch schools, does it not?

[Spence]

At least one public has been in the championship game 20 times since 1980.

So since 1980, more times than not, a private school has to play a public school for the championship?

Oh the humanity!!!!!

Trying so hard not to make a snarky yet possibly relevant comment here...

Let's just point out that there are MANY more private schools than public in D-III. Imagine how many more times publics would have made it and possibly gone head to head if not for a few private powers like Marietta (which has been in 13 championship games by itself), Chapman, Ithaca (in the early days), Emory and St. Thomas.

[Spence]

"So is Wisconsin-Whitewater ready to admit that they don't belong in D3 yet or do they still want to pretend that D3 was designed for Public universities with 5 figure enrollments?"

To me, that DOES smack of sour grapes.  It also presents a false premise that size and public/private are somehow a part of D3's "design".

I do not think that D3 was formed with the idea of large state schools being part of it long term. I could be wrong, and it would probably be pretty hard to prove now, but I just doubt that was the impetus.

Like I say, it's just interesting that D3 has taken steps like severely curtailing the number of games, requiring a given number of games against non-scholarship teams, etc. to try to cut down its giants in the past, yet there's no movement on the literal giants among the membership. Not saying that there should be, but the dichotomy is interesting.

[emma17]

Spence - you're obviously a well-researched guy so I applaud you for your detailed reasoning.
If I was a spiter I'd ding you for both your poor timing and your unwillingness to acknowledge other points of view- especially from Just Bill (great posts).
I disagree with you that Marketing Presence doesn't play in D3. Do you really think Mt Union doesn't have a Marketing Presence advantage over just about every D3 football school?

Gordon thanks for the solid post.
I very much agree with this part of your post
"That said, I think it's also fair to discuss whether UW-Whitewater has a unique set of institutional advantages, in addition to having outstanding athletes, great coaches and a little bit of luck here and there. It's too pat an answer to say, "Whitewater wins because they want it more...their athletes are better...they work harder" (none of which I've read on this page anyway).  Success is usually a mix of talent, hard work and fortunate circumstances.  The existence of one doesn't negate the need for the other two."

I do think it's worth having the discussion of what is UWW doing so well as an institution now that they didn't do for decades and decades previous.  They've been a large public school in a geographic hotbed for a long time.

[ShineTime]

Whitewaters facilities are unbelievable if I were a senior looking to play d3 id go there in a hearbeat.

[02 Warhawk]

Whitewaters facilities are unbelievable if I were a senior looking to play d3 id go there in a hearbeat.

That's a large part of their success. It's no secret UWW is well funded, and their facilities are a huge recruiting tool. That mixed with the lack of D1 and DII programs in the state of Wisconsin (especially in football) is the recipe for their success. Not to mention the administration's continuous efforts to make athletics a major part of the university.

Those are the 3 keys in my opinion to UWW's success.

[02 Warhawk]

I do think it's worth having the discussion of what is UWW doing so well as an institution now that they didn't do for decades and decades previous.  They've been a large public school in a geographic hotbed for a long time.

I don't think it's a coincidence that once the athletic department started upgrading their facilities, UWW started to see a spike in their athletic success. Even though their enrollment remained the same.

[bleedpurple]

"So is Wisconsin-Whitewater ready to admit that they don't belong in D3 yet or do they still want to pretend that D3 was designed for Public universities with 5 figure enrollments?"

To me, that DOES smack of sour grapes.  It also presents a false premise that size and public/private are somehow a part of D3's "design".

I do not think that D3 was formed with the idea of large state schools being part of it long term. I could be wrong, and it would probably be pretty hard to prove now, but I just doubt that was the impetus.

Like I say, it's just interesting that D3 has taken steps like severely curtailing the number of games, requiring a given number of games against non-scholarship teams, etc. to try to cut down its giants in the past, yet there's no movement on the literal giants among the membership. Not saying that there should be, but the dichotomy is interesting.

Whether or not D-III was formed "with the idea of large public schools being part of it long term" is an interesting question, but I'm not sure how relevant it is to the discussion.  Along the way, D-III has clearly accepted and embraced what the publics have brought to the table along the way.  No one forced them to let them in.  The D-III policy and philosophy is actually pretty simple and very clear. No scholarships is the lynchpin. As far as I know, the public schools adhere to the values and philosophies of D-III every bit as much as the private schools do.

I didn't realize the changes you mention were taken to "cut down it's giants".  Is that true?

Probably the more antagonistic part of Jackson5's quote was alluding to UW-W "pretending" anything. They were allowed in to D3, they follow the rules, the kids and coaches work just as hard as anyone else, they play, and in UW-W's case, they are successful. Now some argue they don't belong. I will note that to my knowledge there is not one single case in which a public school has reigned dominance over a sport any more than a private school counterpart has in the past. 

In fact, in football, you'd think Ya'll would just say "thank you" because no one other than UW-W has beaten Mount Union in, what, 115 games? FWIW, they've got 2,200 students give or take.

In baseball, if not for UW-W, St. Thomas may well have won the tournament (obviously there is a great argument for Emory). Check out the money St. Thomas puts towards athletics and their enrollment. Would a St. Thomas championship have felt that much better?

In basketball, UW-W won the championship on a last second shot. Not exactly the stuff of a team playing at the wrong level. 

I don't mind discussing an issue, but these facts seem worth noting.

[emma17]

I do think it's worth having the discussion of what is UWW doing so well as an institution now that they didn't do for decades and decades previous.  They've been a large public school in a geographic hotbed for a long time.

I don't think it's a coincidence that once the athletic department started upgrading their facilities, UWW started to see a spike in their athletic success. Even though their enrollment remained the same.

No doubt the current facilities are great for recruiting and one of the contributing factors to UWW's recent overall success.  That said, the beautiful stadium was there before I got there in 1983.  UWW didn't win a football championship until 2007.  Actually, basketball had two championships before football's first and I certainly don't consider the Williams Center gym all that great a recruiting tool. Baseball won in 2005 and I don't think their new fields were in until after 2007.

I've heard a phrase recently, something along the lines of "20 sports, 1 team".  I get the feeling there is unity among the athletic programs at UWW that isn't common.  Perhaps that's true with the coaching, trainers, workouts... expectations.  People want to be associated with a winner, especially athletes.  There is a contagion at UWW- and it's a good one.

[Pat Coleman]

Baseball's final four teams, full time undergrads:

UW-Whitewater: 9,790
Emory: 7,483
St. Thomas: 6,037
Southern Maine: 4,513

Not every school can be the 1,600-student private liberal arts college. Among baseball schools, the median enrollment is 1,814 and the average is 2,419.

[02 Warhawk]

Interesting...never would have thought Emory was that big.

[jknezek]

Interesting...never would have thought Emory was that big.

The UAA schools in general are pretty large institutions. Not St. Thomas sized, but certainly significantly larger than the average D3 private schools.

Emory is 7400+ undergrad
Wash U is 6K+ undergrad
Carnegie Mellon is 6K+ undergrad
Chicago is 5600 undergrad
Case is 4500 undergrad
Brandeis is 3600 undergrad
Rochester is 5700 undergrad

and the real outlier:
NYU is 19K+ undergrad