BB: WIAC: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Division III is one-quarter state schools. This year, state schools have won one-quarter of all of the Division III national championships. (One championship, rowing, has yet to be awarded, but no state schools qualified.)

Here's the stat that tells you who truly dominates Division III. Over the past five years, all of the state schools combined have won 26 titles. In the same span, one D-III conference, the NESCAC, has won 24. Half of the rowing field is NESCAC schools, so we may see that increase to 25 this weekend.

Over the past 18 years, 23.5% of national titles have been won by state schools.

[108 Stitches]

I don't necessarily think that size matters that much, but it is more about what kind of academic $$ are available, plus other local dynamics.  Certainly in Wisconsin the lack to good D1 programs have an impact. If I was from Wisconsin, I would want to get the He11 out of dodge and go play some place more hospitable to baseball (weather wise of course), but that is coming from a West Coast warm weather perspective.  I have no idea on the academic $$ availability from those schools, but seems to me that would have a larger impact than size. It is not how many are in your pool of players, but who you have attracted to play for you. Certainly facilities impact this.

If you look at the size of the recent CWS winners they have enrollments of (approx) 2,220, 1,450, 10,300 (St Thomas) and 2,160.

[02 Warhawk]

I don't necessarily think that size matters that much, but it is more about what kind of academic $$ are available, plus other local dynamics.  Certainly in Wisconsin the lack to good D1 programs have an impact. If I was from Wisconsin, I would want to get the He11 out of dodge and go play some place more hospitable to baseball (weather wise of course), but that is coming from a West Coast warm weather perspective.  I have no idea on the academic $$ availability from those schools, but seems to me that would have a larger impact than size. It is not how many are in your pool of players, but who you have attracted to play for you. Certainly facilities impact this.

If you look at the size of the recent CWS winners they have enrollments of (approx) 2,220, 1,450, 10,300 (St Thomas) and 2,160.

Well said. Enrollment size only really matters in (public) high school. Where athletes are picked from your school's enrollment. However, in college, athletes are recruited prior to enrolling.

I know we keep alluding to this, but a perfect example is Mount Union's and Whitewater's football programs. Both our outstanding football programs with completely different enrollments.

[badgerwarhawk]

WIAC players in the Northwoods League:

Eau Claire: Brady Burzynski (Stout)
Green Bay: Matt Sabel (Oshkosh), Luke Watson (Point), Mikole Pierce (WW), Jimmy Coady (Point)
LaCrosse: Ben Cejka (LaCrosse), Taylor Kohlway (LaCrosse)
Lakeshore: Ben Messenger (Oshkosh), Joe Pavlovich (Oshkosh), Nic Barnes (LaCrosse)
Wisconsin Rapids: Zach Carlson (Stout), Nick Prebelski (Point), Kyle McHugh (Point), Bobby Gregorich (Point)
Wisconsin: Alex Cordova (LaCrosse)

[02 Warhawk]

WIAC players in the Northwoods League:

Eau Claire: Brady Burzynski (Stout)
Green Bay: Matt Sabel (Oshkosh), Luke Watson (Point), Mikole Pierce (WW), Jimmy Coady (Point)
LaCrosse: Ben Cejka (LaCrosse), Taylor Kohlway (LaCrosse)
Lakeshore: Ben Messenger (Oshkosh), Joe Pavlovich (Oshkosh), Nic Barnes (LaCrosse)
Wisconsin Rapids: Zach Carlson (Stout), Nick Prebelski (Point), Kyle McHugh (Point), Bobby Gregorich (Point)
Wisconsin: Alex Cordova (LaCrosse)

Is this the same league that Vodenlich coaches in? I thought I heard he coaches somewhere during the off season?

[badgerwarhawk]

He coached the Lakeshore team during it's first season a couple of years ago but I don't think he's coached in the league since then. 

[ShineTime]

Is Jp not playing due to his potential high round draft status or to rest his arm?

[jackson5]

I don't necessarily think that size matters that much, but it is more about what kind of academic $$ are available, plus other local dynamics.  Certainly in Wisconsin the lack to good D1 programs have an impact. If I was from Wisconsin, I would want to get the He11 out of dodge and go play some place more hospitable to baseball (weather wise of course), but that is coming from a West Coast warm weather perspective.  I have no idea on the academic $$ availability from those schools, but seems to me that would have a larger impact than size. It is not how many are in your pool of players, but who you have attracted to play for you. Certainly facilities impact this.

If you look at the size of the recent CWS winners they have enrollments of (approx) 2,220, 1,450, 10,300 (St Thomas) and 2,160.

Well said. Enrollment size only really matters in (public) high school. Where athletes are picked from your school's enrollment. However, in college, athletes are recruited prior to enrolling.

I know we keep alluding to this, but a perfect example is Mount Union's and Whitewater's football programs. Both our outstanding football programs with completely different enrollments.

Budget sizes are completely different between large and small schools. Much easier to raise 100K to pay a coach or bring in new equipment when you have 10K students and 50K alumns to draw from than 2K students and 10K alumns. Mount Union is good in football, but none of their other sports are national powers because they have to put all their eggs into the football basket. It's not the fact that Whitewater can randomly draw 100 good football players, 13 basketball players and 30 baseball players from their 10K students that gives them the advantage. It's that its much easier for them to draw the funds needed to support their teams compared to the average D-3 school.

[jackson5]

Division III is one-quarter state schools. This year, state schools have won one-quarter of all of the Division III national championships. (One championship, rowing, has yet to be awarded, but no state schools qualified.)

Here's the stat that tells you who truly dominates Division III. Over the past five years, all of the state schools combined have won 26 titles. In the same span, one D-III conference, the NESCAC, has won 24. Half of the rowing field is NESCAC schools, so we may see that increase to 25 this weekend.

Over the past 18 years, 23.5% of national titles have been won by state schools.

The NESCAC is a different animal though. They are able to get the D-2 and very low D-1 caliber athletes that are academically gifted also because they can tell the kids that they are getting an elite education similar to one that they'd receive in the Patriot league. It's the same reason that St. Thomas is dominant. I have less problem with a school dominating because of that instead of just being able to outspend like a large school like Whitewater can.

[Pat Coleman]

Division III is one-quarter state schools. This year, state schools have won one-quarter of all of the Division III national championships. (One championship, rowing, has yet to be awarded, but no state schools qualified.)

Here's the stat that tells you who truly dominates Division III. Over the past five years, all of the state schools combined have won 26 titles. In the same span, one D-III conference, the NESCAC, has won 24. Half of the rowing field is NESCAC schools, so we may see that increase to 25 this weekend.

Over the past 18 years, 23.5% of national titles have been won by state schools.

The NESCAC is a different animal though. They are able to get the D-2 and very low D-1 caliber athletes that are academically gifted also because they can tell the kids that they are getting an elite education similar to one that they'd receive in the Patriot league.

The WIAC is able to get the D-2 and very low D-1 caliber athletes because they can tell the kids they are getting the same education they would at most D-I schools but that they also have a chance to win a national title.

Not much difference.

[Pat Coleman]

I don't necessarily think that size matters that much, but it is more about what kind of academic $$ are available, plus other local dynamics.  Certainly in Wisconsin the lack to good D1 programs have an impact. If I was from Wisconsin, I would want to get the He11 out of dodge and go play some place more hospitable to baseball (weather wise of course), but that is coming from a West Coast warm weather perspective.  I have no idea on the academic $$ availability from those schools, but seems to me that would have a larger impact than size. It is not how many are in your pool of players, but who you have attracted to play for you. Certainly facilities impact this.

If you look at the size of the recent CWS winners they have enrollments of (approx) 2,220, 1,450, 10,300 (St Thomas) and 2,160.

Stick with full-time undergraduates -- the 4,000 part-time and graduate students at St. Thomas are really not relevant to athletics.

[02 Warhawk]

I don't necessarily think that size matters that much, but it is more about what kind of academic $$ are available, plus other local dynamics.  Certainly in Wisconsin the lack to good D1 programs have an impact. If I was from Wisconsin, I would want to get the He11 out of dodge and go play some place more hospitable to baseball (weather wise of course), but that is coming from a West Coast warm weather perspective.  I have no idea on the academic $$ availability from those schools, but seems to me that would have a larger impact than size. It is not how many are in your pool of players, but who you have attracted to play for you. Certainly facilities impact this.

If you look at the size of the recent CWS winners they have enrollments of (approx) 2,220, 1,450, 10,300 (St Thomas) and 2,160.

Well said. Enrollment size only really matters in (public) high school. Where athletes are picked from your school's enrollment. However, in college, athletes are recruited prior to enrolling.

I know we keep alluding to this, but a perfect example is Mount Union's and Whitewater's football programs. Both our outstanding football programs with completely different enrollments.

Budget sizes are completely different between large and small schools. Much easier to raise 100K to pay a coach or bring in new equipment when you have 10K students and 50K alumns to draw from than 2K students and 10K alumns. Mount Union is good in football, but none of their other sports are national powers because they have to put all their eggs into the football basket. It's not the fact that Whitewater can randomly draw 100 good football players, 13 basketball players and 30 baseball players from their 10K students that gives them the advantage. It's that its much easier for them to draw the funds needed to support their teams compared to the average D-3 school.

I've been to many small private DIII schools, and from what I can see there's little problem with funding. There's some excellent facilities out there, both public and private. I'm not buying that private schools can't hang dollar for dollar with public schools. The big difference is allocation of money. Some private schools don't consider athletics as important as other private schools, so their facilities lack. so instead their funds are given to a new liberal arts building or something. Then you have a schools like St. Thomas, North Central, etc. that are serious about athletics, and their facilities are some of the best in DIII. Almost forgot about Mary Hardin-Baylor (private)...their new football stadium would rival some DI facililties. Good God is that stadium huge!!!

That's not really true about Mount Union (you're probably just looking at the football, baseball and basketball). In fact, Mount just became national champs in men's track and field last week. Many Mount fans have told me that their Track team has been solid for the past 40+ years.

This isn't high school....college teams don't draw their athletic players from their student population. They recruit before students enroll...just like every other collegiate sport at any level. It's not dumn luck that the best DIII football talent just happens to enroll at Mount Union every year? Of course not, they are heavily influenced to come to Mount out of high school to play football for the purple raiders.

[Spence]

Spence - you're obviously a well-researched guy so I applaud you for your detailed reasoning.
If I was a spiter I'd ding you for both your poor timing and your unwillingness to acknowledge other points of view- especially from Just Bill (great posts).
I disagree with you that Marketing Presence doesn't play in D3. Do you really think Mt Union doesn't have a Marketing Presence advantage over just about every D3 football school?

I did say that if anyone does, it's Mount Union. That said, I still think it's pretty small beyond the success they have as a program. I don't think that being on TV a maximum of one time a year makes that big a difference. I think their championships and their track record makes a MUCH bigger one.

The point is that Duke can be a small school and thrive in basketball because basketball for one requires fewer players and resources anyway, and for another because they're on TV more than pretty much any college program in the country. That kind of leverage is non-existent in D3.

With Notre Dame, as many advantages as they've always had, even they're starting to feel the effects of so many resources being devoted to football now. They're not in the top 10 in athletic department revenue anymore and the on-field product in the last couple of decades doesn't match their reputation. And except Stanford, pretty much everyone with enrollment below 11,000 is struggling in college football, while most of the largest schools (except commuter schools that are in mid major leagues) are among the top programs. So even at that level, yes it makes a difference.

[Spence]

Whitewaters facilities are unbelievable if I were a senior looking to play d3 id go there in a hearbeat.

If all you're looking for is athletics, I suppose so.

[Spence]

This isn't high school....college teams don't draw their athletic players from their student population. They recruit before students enroll...just like every other collegiate sport at any level.

You can say it all you want, it's not going to make it true.

Student population and school size and budget size leads to a larger budget to recruit those students before they enroll. Not everyone has the same amount of money in their budget.