BB: WIAC: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Focusing on just four major sports for your analysis is so contrary to the Division III philosophy that I can't even describe it. And lumping football, with one dominant large school in, is just as bad a sample as if I chose to look at only swimming and decide that the NCAC is too powerful.

[jackson5]

Focusing on just four major sports for your analysis is so contrary to the Division III philosophy that I can't even describe it. And lumping football, with one dominant large school in, is just as bad a sample as if I chose to look at only swimming and decide that the NCAC is too powerful.

Well actually, football had the lowest number. In the last 20 years, it's just been whitewater 5 times and LaCrosse once.  Baseball has had 7 times, Basketball is 11 and Lacrosse is 12. But I understand why Football is a poor sample size because Whitewater has dominated it, which is why I included the other sports.

And the truth is that no one cares about swimming or track and field or field hockey. The only reason that Lacrosse was chosen is because college is the only level that it gains any interest in. So there's no reason to look at a sport like field hockey and say "See See a small school can win that!" isn't saying much because there's not really any interest in it or reason for an average school to put money into that sport to try to excel in it. And having a strong swimming program doesn't really give a reason for a school to move up to D-1 as they can just move up in that individual sport if they wanted to anyways and if they did go D-1 in all sports and only excelled in that then the move would be pointless.

[jackson5]

"I'm sure if a school wanted to make the leap they could do it,"

This is the only part of your statement that matters. They haven't done it because they don't want to; they'd rather be big fish in a small pond.

Grand Valley State is one of the top D-II programs in the country (won the Directors Cup each year between 2004-2011 and were 2nd in 2002 & 2003 and 2012 & 2013. But a few years ago, they showed the reasons WHY they remained D-II instead of D-I.

You can read it here:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/grva/genrel/auto_pdf/selgod2_09.pdf

This lays out what it takes to jump from D-II to D-I.


Jumping from D-III to D-II would be a similar jump and it's an institutional choice. The D-III model is ingrained in the WIAC and that's part f why the conference has had the success that it has had.


But the fact of the matter is that the same reason why GVSU isn't going D-I is why the WIAC isn't going D-II.

1. Institutional philosophy; and
2. How much money the school wants to spend on intercollegiate athletics


Where do you think this money is going to come from? Remember, it isn't just Men's Basketball or Baseball that is going to need to get scholarships... Football will as well and that means a slew of women's sports will get scholarships as well. And even now, in a program like UWSP basketball, which is typically in the top 5 or 6 in the country in attendance, doesn't even make up operating costs as it is WITHOUT scholarships. Where's the $$ going to come from? Even if everything else remained as they are now, UWSP would be in the top 30 in MBB attendence. There isn't much higher they can go.

The main issues in this story is cost, landing place, and facilities.

Landing place: Whitewater could easily go to the Missouri Valley for football, and Horizon league for all sports. For football all the schools would be in the midwest with them in Indiana, Iowa and Illinois except for the Dakota and Missouri state and Youngstown State.

Facilities: Whitewater has a 11K seat football stadium already that draws 6,500 a game. Put them at D-1 against real competition and they'll be able to draw more casual fans and get that average up to 8-9K consistently. If they have success then they can easily expand their stadium up to 18-20K over time. Their basketball gym is alittle small at 2,500 but there's plenty of NEC and MAAC schools whose gyms aren't much larger and some are smaller. Once again, put them against D-1 competition and they'll gain more of a casual following and be able to sell that out to.  And their baseball stadium is already nicer than many low D-1 schools.

Cost: That will be an issue. The scholarships will be expensive but like I mentioned earlier at 10K undergrads they have a large enough pool of students and alumns to draw funding from. The issue for them will be petitioning to the State to allow for them offer scholarships and be D-1.

[Spence]

This just in from the "things the WIAC PR department didn't tell you"...the town of River Falls has banned public vomiting.

[Pat Coleman]

Let us know when you're done, Spence.

[badgerwarhawk]

This just in from the "things the WIAC PR department didn't tell you"...the town of River Falls has banned public vomiting.

Would you suggest that they promote it?   

[ShineTime]

Anyone have any idea if point is getting any solid pitching recruits or transfers next year?  It's looking like they will have a ton of bats but nowhere near the pitching depth they had this year.  In a perfect world Jp would return for senior year but I doubt that happens. 

[02 Warhawk]

"I'm sure if a school wanted to make the leap they could do it,"

This is the only part of your statement that matters. They haven't done it because they don't want to; they'd rather be big fish in a small pond.

Grand Valley State is one of the top D-II programs in the country (won the Directors Cup each year between 2004-2011 and were 2nd in 2002 & 2003 and 2012 & 2013. But a few years ago, they showed the reasons WHY they remained D-II instead of D-I.

You can read it here:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/grva/genrel/auto_pdf/selgod2_09.pdf

This lays out what it takes to jump from D-II to D-I.


Jumping from D-III to D-II would be a similar jump and it's an institutional choice. The D-III model is ingrained in the WIAC and that's part f why the conference has had the success that it has had.


But the fact of the matter is that the same reason why GVSU isn't going D-I is why the WIAC isn't going D-II.

1. Institutional philosophy; and
2. How much money the school wants to spend on intercollegiate athletics


Where do you think this money is going to come from? Remember, it isn't just Men's Basketball or Baseball that is going to need to get scholarships... Football will as well and that means a slew of women's sports will get scholarships as well. And even now, in a program like UWSP basketball, which is typically in the top 5 or 6 in the country in attendance, doesn't even make up operating costs as it is WITHOUT scholarships. Where's the $$ going to come from? Even if everything else remained as they are now, UWSP would be in the top 30 in MBB attendence. There isn't much higher they can go.

The main issues in this story is cost, landing place, and facilities.

Landing place: Whitewater could easily go to the Missouri Valley for football, and Horizon league for all sports. For football all the schools would be in the midwest with them in Indiana, Iowa and Illinois except for the Dakota and Missouri state and Youngstown State.

Facilities: Whitewater has a 11K seat football stadium already that draws 6,500 a game. Put them at D-1 against real competition and they'll be able to draw more casual fans and get that average up to 8-9K consistently. If they have success then they can easily expand their stadium up to 18-20K over time. Their basketball gym is alittle small at 2,500 but there's plenty of NEC and MAAC schools whose gyms aren't much larger and some are smaller. Once again, put them against D-1 competition and they'll gain more of a casual following and be able to sell that out to.  And their baseball stadium is already nicer than many low D-1 schools.

Cost: That will be an issue. The scholarships will be expensive but like I mentioned earlier at 10K undergrads they have a large enough pool of students and alumns to draw funding from. The issue for them will be petitioning to the State to allow for them offer scholarships and be D-1.

Not. Going. To. Happen. 

[Spence]

Let us know when you're done, Spence.

Just reporting facts. Did think it was pretty funny timing, though.

[emma17]

This is a fantastic article, sums up the UWW rise. 
http://host.madison.com/sports/college/state-and-regional/whitewater/tom-oates-uw-whitewater-s-three-national-titles-a-special/article_0c36f12d-2bd3-508a-bb83-3cafa4e197f9.html

[02 Warhawk]

This is a fantastic article, sums up the UWW rise. 
http://host.madison.com/sports/college/state-and-regional/whitewater/tom-oates-uw-whitewater-s-three-national-titles-a-special/article_0c36f12d-2bd3-508a-bb83-3cafa4e197f9.html

He nailed it on the head: Facilities, location and taking advantage of limited DI and DII programs in the state. Plus it's refreshing to hear the coaches getting some well deserved credit as well.

[Spence]

I think it's a very fair article. It touches on some of the same "advantages" I've mentioned but just doesn't really get into the nature of them. Which I understand, only so many column inches in print. It's also a week late, as the article itself notes. The article is basically a rewrite of the NY Times piece with a nod to the WIAC thrown in.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/31/sports/wisconsin-whitewater-is-a-ncaa-division-iii-champion-in-three-sports.html?hpw&rref=sports&_r=0

This is the NY Times article. The first thing that jumps out at me is the 1 in 38 million "odds" statement is ridiculous and stupid. Heck at worst you have to say UW-Whitewater had like 40% chance of winning in football. Maybe 60%, whatever, point is the same. I'd say a more realistic number that doesn't assume every team has an equal chance (which they don't) is more like 1 in 500ish -- 1/2 in football, 1/20 in basketball, 1/15 in baseball? Maybe the odds are even lower than that.

The NYT article only gets six paragraphs before talking about UWW's size. But neither article dares talk about the other reason the WIAC is what it is, and hence the competition is what it is. The facilities bit stems in part from being a large public school that can draw on resources.

None of the rest of the stuff mentioned would really matter if they weren't a big fish in a small pond that can recruit basically whoever they want in-state at a state-subsidized discount. It would surprise me if some strategists in the school aren't thinking about how to move up.

[badgerwarhawk]

Yawn

[02 Warhawk]

Emory vs. UW-Whitewater Championship (full game)

[Pat Coleman]

It would surprise me if some strategists in the school aren't thinking about how to move up.

Your wishful thinking doesn't make it so. I know you're new to the conversation but there isn't anything that hasn't been said many times in the past decade, so can we stop beating this dead horse again?