Posters' Poll

Mr. Ypsi · March 24, 2008, 04:47:18 PM

That's why I don't feel obligated to put the champ as #1 on my ballot. (I can't think of a d3 champ I wouldn't have, but I'm not sure Villanova or NCSt. would have made my top 10! Of course, they still retain the trophy, which they won fair and square, so I'm sure they couldn't care less about my opinion.

)

There is a valid case for smed's way of extending the ranking ONLY if we ignore geographical bias in matching up teams (e.g., either Wash U or Augie could not finish higher than 17th, even if, as was the case, one beat the other in OT, while several pods had no ranked teams so someone had to make the final 16), and the possibility of upsets (e.g., UWW, a top two team going in, falls completely out of the top 25 because of one ill-timed slip-up). Such a mechanical system totally ignores an entire season of results.

IF #2 thru #405 is viewed a moot, then of course it doesn't matter. But IF we are going to do a poll, it does. I doubt many think that John Jay is better than Augie or UWW, but that is how it would come out mechanically.

[And, smed, I hope you are not taking this the wrong way. During the season I think you are among the most thoughtful (and reliable) of voters. But having final results at the whim of the bracket-makers, and turning the 'rankings' into a one game season, is IMO inappropriate for a 'poll'.]

Marty Peretz · March 24, 2008, 08:00:46 PM

1)Wash.U.
2)Amherst
3)Hope
4)Brandeis
5)Augustana

It's all up in the air from there...

smedindy · March 24, 2008, 09:47:29 PM

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 24, 2008, 04:47:18 PM
That's why I don't feel obligated to put the champ as #1 on my ballot. (I can't think of a d3 champ I wouldn't have, but I'm not sure Villanova or NCSt. would have made my top 10! Of course, they still retain the trophy, which they won fair and square, so I'm sure they couldn't care less about my opinion. )

There is a valid case for smed's way of extending the ranking ONLY if we ignore geographical bias in matching up teams (e.g., either Wash U or Augie could not finish higher than 17th, even if, as was the case, one beat the other in OT, while several pods had no ranked teams so someone had to make the final 16), and the possibility of upsets (e.g., UWW, a top two team going in, falls completely out of the top 25 because of one ill-timed slip-up). Such a mechanical system totally ignores an entire season of results.

IF #2 thru #405 is viewed a moot, then of course it doesn't matter. But IF we are going to do a poll, it does. I doubt many think that John Jay is better than Augie or UWW, but that is how it would come out mechanically.

[And, smed, I hope you are not taking this the wrong way. During the season I think you are among the most thoughtful (and reliable) of voters. But having final results at the whim of the bracket-makers, and turning the 'rankings' into a one game season, is IMO inappropriate for a 'poll'.]

I didn't take it wrong at all. It's just how I view things. I guess I should have 'forgotten' to vote as I legitimately did last year.

I know John Jay and St. Mary's aren't among the Top 25, but that's where they'd 'place' and I think they do 'place' that way for the Director's Cup, right?

Kind of like when an obscure golfer places in the Top 30 of the money list just because he was consistently decent, but never won. Or maybe not that. Heck, I dunno. I need to go back to work, and I need a nap.

Mommy?

Pat Coleman · March 24, 2008, 09:56:27 PM

Yeah -- what you're doing is standings, not rankings.

Mr. Ypsi · March 24, 2008, 10:38:14 PM

As of now we still have only 4 ballots. sac promises one when he gets back to Michigan on Wednesday. If we ever reach 7 or 8, I'll post a final poll; otherwise we'll go with Ralph's suggestion last year that the real benefit is learning the rationale that voter's use to decide placements. I'll post my ballot (and reasoning) tomorrow, something I would never do during the regular season (lest I influence other's ballots

).

So if you don't want to be 'contaminated' by my ballot, get 'em in soon!

Mr. Ypsi · March 25, 2008, 06:34:40 PM

Well, there are still only 4 ballots in - I'll continue to compile if voters send me a ballot (or post here), and post a final PP if the numbers ever justify it. Meanwhile, my top 10 (with explanations):

1. Wash U - duh! As mentioned before, I don't fell obligated to vote the winner as #1, but two double-digit wins in the FF kinda clinches it!

2. Hope
3. Amherst - this could certainly be argued either way (the trophies are not an argument, since both beat #4, both lost to #1; which was 'officially' #2 was a matter of scheduling, not basketball). d3hoops took Amherst overwhelmingly, all 4 ballots here so far have taken Hope. I had Hope ranked higher going in, and saw no compelling evidence to reverse it.

4. Augie - both regular-season and tourney champs in the CCIW should count for something, and it took Wash U OT to beat 'em (unlike Amherst or Hope!)

5. Brandeis - didn't double-scheck, but I think they're the only team to beat BOTH Amherst and Wash U (and Plattsburgh St. for good measure)

6. UWW - yeah, they were one-and-done, but I had 'em #2 going in and won't punish them TOO much for one ill-timed slip-up!

7. Plattsburgh St. - MAY be too high, but 27-3 against a 'decent' schedule is worth something, and the team that knocked them out is higher ranked

8. Millsaps - GREAT tourney run - then came Wash U

9. Ursinus - weak schedule, weak tourney draw, crushed when they hit the FF (yeah, I'm aware they lost their AA); I could see them anywhere from 7 to 12, so this seemed about right

10. Guilford - yeah, again one-and-done. I've got a 'man-crush' on Ben Strong (I counted on him repeating the 2007 tourney, and had them all-the-way on my pickems!); probably too high, so sue me!

The rest of my top 25 later.

Mr. Ypsi · March 25, 2008, 08:35:52 PM

11 - 25 (and beyond):

11. Wheaton - what a valedictory by Kent Raymond! (And not too shabby for Andy Wiele.) If only they had some depth.

12. Centre - an ignominious exit, but still 26-3.

13. Wooster - another one-and-done, but by 5 lousy points to Wash U!

14. UWSP - TWO points kept them from the richer fate of losing to Wash U instead of BV.

15. UMHB - great season; Millsaps was on fire.

16. Coast Guard - not even on the fringes of my radar going in - great run (did all the 'heavy lifting' for Ursinus)!

17. UM-Dartmouth - MAYBE doesn't deserve the ranking (one-and-done to Coast Guard, but a great season should not be ignored.

18. Buena Vista - knocked out both St. Thomas and UWSP; took Wash U to overtime. MAYBE deserves even higher, but not ranked going in, and if they can't even pronounce they're own name ... !

19. Rochester - a very tough team to rank. Based on the whole season (including the tourney), anywhere from 10 to 30 sounds defensible!

20. Chicago - yet another one-and-done, but they did win the title in what was this year almost certainly the number one league.

21. Lawrence - had the misfortune of meeting a Wheaton team that didn't even expect to get in; tough draw! But I think their overall season merits the spot.

22. IWU - would I have them here if I wasn't a Titan? Probably not, but only because I wouldn't have probably noticed that they beat #11 Wheaton THREE times!

Not really sure if this is a 'homer' pick, but that stat (plus finishing second both regular season and tournament in the CCIW) deserves something!

23. Virginia Wesleyan - they did win ONE game, and a whole season of excellence shouldn't be trashed because they lost to a FF team!

24. UW-Platteville - I gotta have one team that didn't get invited to the Dance, just to register a protest on the selection process!

25. Whitworth - they beat Oxy (previously in my top 25), then ran into a buzz-saw named Kent Raymond.

Others strongly considered (in no particular order): Loras, Gettysburg, OWU, Oxy, St. Mary's, St. Thomas, Richard Stockton.

Mr. Ypsi · March 25, 2008, 08:48:34 PM

OK, folks, have at it! Where did I totally get it wrong (and WHY are you disputing my perfect reasoning

)?

Others wish to put up their picks, and discuss?

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) · March 25, 2008, 09:03:00 PM

Here's my final ballot. Last teams off include Rochester and IWU, along with Trinity (CT) and not UMASS-D. I reluctantly ranked them near the end of their undefeated streak, but I've never been sold on them this year. RIC was a better team.

1. WashU
2. Hope
3. Amherst
4. Augustana
5. Brandeis
6. Whitewater
7. Ursinius
8. Guilford
9. Centre
10. Stevens Point
11. Chicago
12. Wooster
13. Plattsburgh
14. VA Wesleyan
15. Buena Vista
16. Wheaton (IL)
17. Millsaps
18. Coast Guard
19. Lawrence
20. St. Thomas
21. Loras
22. Heidelberg
23. Capital
24. Gettysburg
25. Mary Hardin Baylor

Ralph Turner · March 25, 2008, 11:45:11 PM

1) Wash StL II
2) Hope I
3) Amherst III
4) Augie II
5) Wheaton IL I

6) Buena Vista II
7) UW-SP II
8 ) Loras I (Sleeper)
9) Ursinus IV (Maybe 1-2 too low.)
10) UWW I

11) Millsaps II
12) Brandeis III
13) OWU I
14) Coast Guard IV
15) Wooster II

16) UMHB II (Even after the injuries to Wagner & Dickey)
17) Whitworth I
18 ) Plattsburgh St III
19) Chicago II
20) UMass-Dartmouth IV

21) Rochester IV (In Crunch time, the big men could not hit FT's.)
22) VWC IV
23) Centre I
24) Guilford II
25) Tommies II

I broke out my ballot by bracket. I think that there is much parity in the country, but I think that this tournament allowed the "cream to rise to the top".

Amherst, Brandeis and Plattsburgh St were the class of their region, but I think that some regions were more challenging than others.

As for the remainder of the Top 25, I thought that the teams were "that close" to the Championship, and had to go thru "that many teams" to get there. We have a regional focus in D-III. That isn't going to change, but I think that the Top 25 ought to reflect the strengths of the various regions.

Mr. Ypsi · March 26, 2008, 12:22:22 AM

Ralph,

I'll respond more fully another time, but how can you have Wheaton #5 and no love at all for my Titans who beat them THREE times!

Ralph Turner · March 26, 2008, 12:48:24 AM

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 26, 2008, 12:22:22 AM
Ralph,

I'll respond more fully another time, but how can you have Wheaton #5 and no love at all for my Titans who beat them THREE times!

Pyrrhic Victories*...

IWU put all of that effort into the games versus the Wheaties (three wins by a cumulative margin of 8 points) and then turned around and lost to Augie three times and North Park once in subsequent games.

Conference play is a bear!

*Wikipedia'd for you readers who wish to expand your knowledge of classical literature and history...

Mr. Ypsi · March 26, 2008, 01:02:24 AM

Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 26, 2008, 12:48:24 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 26, 2008, 12:22:22 AM
Ralph,

I'll respond more fully another time, but how can you have Wheaton #5 and no love at all for my Titans who beat them THREE times!
Pyrrhic Victories...

IWU put all of that effort into the games versus the Wheaties (three wins by a cumulative margin of 8 points) and then turned around and lost to Augie three times and North Park once in subsequent games.

Conference play is a bear!

et tu, Brute?

Even when the CCIW is down at the top, it is a brutal slog top to bottom!

magicman · March 26, 2008, 04:10:35 AM

Here's my final poll.

#1 Washington U.
#2 Hope
#3 Amherst
#4 Millsaps
#5 Brandeis
#6 Ursinus
#7 Coast Guard
#8 Plattsburgh State
#9 Buena Vista
#10 Augustana
#11 Rochester
#12 UW-Stevens Point
#13 Wheaton
#14 Richard Stockton
#15 Mary Hardin-Baylor
#16 Centre
#17 Capital
#18 Gettysburg
#19 Whitworth
#20 Ohio Wesleyan
#21 Loras
#22 UW-Whitewater
#23 Virginia Wesleyan
#24 St. Mary's
#25 Guilford

So, the following list is how the final poll would shake out for the top 25 and beyond. Point totals are listed after the team.

#1. Washington U 125 Unanimous
#2 Hope 119
#3 Amherst    116
#4 Augustana 103
#5 Brandeis    99
#6 Ursinus 88
#7 Millsaps 84
#8 UW-Whitewater 79
#9 UW-Stevens Point 77
#10 Buena Vista 73
#11 Plattsburgh 69
#12 Wheaton 64
#13 Wooster 56
#14 Centre 52
#15 Coast Guard 51
#16 Guilford 49
#17 Univ. of Rochester 40
#18 Mary Hardin-Baylor 36
#19 Ohio Wesleyan 29
#20 Chicago (tie) 28
#20 Loras (tie) 28
#20 Virginia Wesleyan(tie) 28
#23 Capital (tie) 21
#23 St Thomas (tie) 21
#25 Whitworth 17
#26 Lawrence    16
#27 UMass-Dartmouth 15
#28 Richard Stockton 12
#29 Gettysburg 11
#30 UW-Plattville 9
#31 Heidelberg (tie) 3
#31 Illinois Wesleyan (tie) 3
#33 St Mary"s    2

Sorry Mr Y. I couldn't resist doing the totals since there were only 4 ballots.

EDITED to include my poll

sac · March 27, 2008, 12:58:30 AM

Here's my top 5

1. Washington
2. Amherst
3. Hope
4. Brandeis
5. Augustana

Difficult poll to finish with so many early round "upsets" especially in the left half of the bracket.

I probably differed the most with having Buena Vista and Wooster higher than most, and having Centre, Wheaton and Ursinas lower than most but not by a lot.

Good job again this year Mr. Y. Thanks to those who participate, I always enjoy this little segment of the board.