Posters' Poll

[Mr. Ypsi]

Memo to KnightSlappy - I guess I can now 'forgive' Calvin for their loss to Carthage.  Carthage just took down #1 (real poll; #2 on ours) NCC by double-digits!  If Calvin wins on Saturday (they certainly should), they'll be on my ballot next week.

[Ralph Turner]

CTX was on my "watch list" from the ASC (I gave them a #25), but they did not beat rival UMHB in Belton last night.  They lost 98-95.  That series is always tough.  A win at UMHB would have really told me something!  CTX matches well against UMHB.

The best team in the ASC has not declared itself yet.  UMHB matches well against almost everyone.

UT-Tyler could not hold home court against UMHB and CTX last week when the travel partners made that trip.  UT-Dallas lost to the 3 best in the ASC-West.   We saw HSU on the national stage in Las Vegas last month.

[pjunito]

They beat some really, truly terrible teams by very small amounts.  I am not a believer.

I am the biggest Albertus supporter on these boards. I think the poll is fair, 27-31, very fair. They are not a regional power, they are a solid team. Their conference is weak and their out of conference schedule is average at best. They did beat West Conn, Trinity,and Wesleyan this year. I think they are building something nice there; I would love to see them play a tougher out of conference schedule; especially since GNAC has automatic bid. Let's see if that happens next year.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'm really torn on how to handle Cabrini.  Now that d3hoops.com Rookie of the Year Aaron Walton-Moss has regained eligibility, I have little doubt they are a top 25 team, but they DO have 4 losses from when he was ineligible, and play in such a low-level conference they will have no chance before the tourney to show what they've got.

Thoughts?

It is sort of reminiscent of when Kent Raymond went down with an injury a few years back, and the very highly ranked Wheaton team promptly lost 2 games (and a third in his first game back, when he was clearly less than 100%).  The difference is that, in the CCIW, Wheaton could prove themselves.  Once they started consistently winning again, I mostly ignored the losses and started voting them almost to where they would have been with two or three wins.  With a CSAC schedule, Cabrini has no opportunity to prove themselves.

[Ralph Turner]

IMHO, if you are a Cabrini advocate, put them into the bottom of your poll and let them float up. They may be #18 by the end of February, if they "gel" as you expect.

#18 is suggesting that they make the Sweet 16 out of a weaker than average Mid-Atlantic region.  ("Weaker than average" is a discussion for another time.)

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Rosemont isn't terrible - maybe a top 100 team.  If Cabrini wins by 20+, it would be a positive indication.

They did lose to Wesley with Walton-Moss.  Wesley seems better than I initially thought.  Granted Cabrini's chemistry couldn't have been quite right yet, but there will be room for growth.

With the style they play, I think comparing scores from this year to last year in terms of margin of victory can be helpful as well.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Yeah, after I posted I noticed that Cabrini's loss to Wesley was with Walton-Moss back (he had 16 points).  I think I'll defer action for now.  If (as I expect) they get to 15 or 16 and 4, I'll probably slide them into the nether reaches of the ballot.

Very good teams from very bad conferences are always a riddle!

[John Gleich]

I'm really torn on how to handle Cabrini.  Now that d3hoops.com Rookie of the Year Aaron Walton-Moss has regained eligibility, I have little doubt they are a top 25 team, but they DO have 4 losses from when he was ineligible, and play in such a low-level conference they will have no chance before the tourney to show what they've got.

Thoughts?

It is sort of reminiscent of when Kent Raymond went down with an injury a few years back, and the very highly ranked Wheaton team promptly lost 2 games (and a third in his first game back, when he was clearly less than 100%).  The difference is that, in the CCIW, Wheaton could prove themselves.  Once they started consistently winning again, I mostly ignored the losses and started voting them almost to where they would have been with two or three wins.  With a CSAC schedule, Cabrini has no opportunity to prove themselves.

I'm not sure Cabrini is the team for the "Kent Raymond" test because KR was with Wheaton, then not with them for a few games (and Wheaton was a shell of their former selves), then with them again.

Wheaton rose to the #1 ranking in the country and a 15-0 record when Raymond got hurt. They beat a bad Millikin team (up until this season, that last statement would have been redundant...), then lost at home to Carthage and Elmhurst and North Central in Naperville. Raymond was back for the NC game but didn't start and only played 20 minutes. The next game, they beat Augustana in Rock Island, the first of 11 straight victories.

Clearly, Wheaton was a much different team with Kent Raymond than without him.

I'm not sure that, for this season, Cabrini is the best team for the "Raymond test," as I mentioned above. I think my Pointers are, with the future of Tyler Tillema continuing to be in question.

Now, I think that Stevens Point is more talented behind Tillema than Wheaton was behind Raymond, and for that matter, I think that Raymond  was better than even a healthy Tillema. But both players are/were All-American-type players and integral to the team's ultimate success for the season.

I think, in the same way that Wheaton was a top 5 team with Raymond and a #15 (or possibly even lower) team without him, Stevens Point is too. I'm not sure that Point should be much lower than #15, and as they've shown (like on Wednesday night when they handled a good UW Stout team), SP is still a good team without Ty Tillema... but they're not as great as they are with him.

It's more than just the 18 points per game, of course. It's even more than the 4 assists per game... but in many respects, it's related to this. Tillema has a unique ability (at least among Pointers) to get to the rim and score. He's got a keen awareness of where his teammates are, too, and paired with his ability to break down a defense, it allows him to get the ball to players in places where they can score. It's more that just the direct assist... perhaps it's a pass from a different angle that knocks a defender off balance, so when he kicks to an open player, the defender is late and more susceptible to a ball fake, which allows Ty's teammate to get to the rim himself.

The recipients of this are likely going to be the post players, guys like Clayton Heuer and Joe Ritchay. I don't think that it's a coincidence that the #1 and #2 guys in Pointer history in field goal percentage are the post players who benefited from playing with great penetrators like Jerrel Harris, Dan Tillema, Tyler Tillema, and DeVon Jackson.

D Tillema and Harris are gone. Tyler is out for right now, and Jackson has recently been able to rejoin the team after taking last school year off (necessitating the need to sit out the first semester). In other words, Point is going to get even better as the year goes on.

I think they're probably ranked best (without Tillema) at about 15... but the second that Tyler is back, they should jump about 10 spots.



I think St. Thomas easily rise to the top spot in the next regular poll (they were already there in this one  ). Middlebury hasn't shown very much lately... their last two victories are by a combined 4 points. And this was against two of the lesser teams in the NESCAC. (Caveat... I understand that Stevens Point recently beat WIAC bottom feeder Eau Claire by just 4 points themselves... but I'm not making (or breaking?) their case for being the #1 team in the land either!). Just one poll point separates St. Thomas from Middlebury, and I think that the separation should be much greater than that.

Perhaps Rochester could make a stab at it... but I don't see them coming through this upcoming weekend unscathed. Chicago will wear them down and Wash U will beat them. Wash U will need some redemption after losing two in a row... because Emory is going to knock off the Bears in the Friday night game (Heard it here first!).

Whitworth doesn't have a claim for the top spot, especially over St. Thomas, who's their one blemish. This was even on Whitworth's home floor, though it was in just the second game of the year.


One final thought.... Like I said, I like St. Thomas for the top spot this week. But, something happened in the UST/UWSP game that is still rubbing me the wrong way.  Let me explain.

First, take a look at the Box Score.

St Thomas led by as many as 6, twice in the first half, Point led by as many as 4, and led at half time 27-26. It SHOULD have been by at least 4... SP had a 4 point lead and the ball and turned it over with :02 left in the half and Zach Reideman for UST picked up the loose ball and tossed it 3/4 of the length of the court... and it spashed in. This turned the momentum of the game... UWSP had been on a 12-2 run, turning a 6 point deficit into a 4 point lead... but instead it was just a one point lead.

But though that rubbed me the wrong way a little bit, that's not even what I'm talking about.

UST, with the momentum, took the lead early in the second half and extended it to 11 with 11:00 left in the game. Point then chipped away and chipped away... until, with 1:44 left, Clayton Heuer scored and was fouled, hitting the freebie, and cutting the lead to 3, at 62-59. Stevens Point got a stop and a Heuer bucket with :57 cut the lead to 1, at 62-61.

Now the next play in the box score is what really sticks in my craw...

00:39  UWSP  FOUL by Heuer,Clayton (4)

In the 0:18 between when Clayton scored and Clayton (apparently) fouled Will DeBerg (an almost 90% free throw shooter), Stevens Point almost got a steal, but the ball went out of bounds.

BEFORE THE BALL WAS EVEN INBOUNDED a foul was called, because DeBerg effectively flopped. He "got caught up" in the defenders, 35 feet away from where the ball was being inbounded in near half court by the scorer's table and drew a foul call.

He proceeded to knock down two FT's, bringing the lead back to 3. Point missed on the other end when Tillema (who was playing, despite being injured, and who may have ultimately made the injury worse) took a quick, though shot that missed... and Point was forced to foul again.

So, though SP still had chances after that point, it effectively ended the game because UST hit their free throws. I just thought it was an incredibly cheap way for a very tough, hardnosed game to end. It was crafty, I'll give you that, but it left a really bad taste in my mouth, even now, several weeks later.

I hadn't talked about it up until this point because, and I'm not kidding here, my hard drive crashed right after the game ended. I was frustrated enough as it was that I didn't go back and post about it later from my other computer and I was trying to fix the one that broke for the rest of the evening.

Darn you Will DeBerg, your shenanigans broke my computer!

[Mr. Ypsi]

I agree that UWSP/Tillema is vastly more similar to Wheaton/Raymond than is Cabrini/Walton-Moss (esp. since with their conferences, UWSP - assuming Tillema returns fairly soon - and Wheaton had clear-cut chances for redemption), but I was just seeking a rough analogy for Cabrini ("a team which is completely different once an AA-type player returns").

Adding a player who obviously totally changes the team makes Cabrini an even more than usually puzzling situation of 'very good team in very bad conference'!

[sac]

Rosemont isn't terrible - maybe a top 100 team.  If Cabrini wins by 20+, it would be a positive indication.

They did lose to Wesley with Walton-Moss.  Wesley seems better than I initially thought.  Granted Cabrini's chemistry couldn't have been quite right yet, but there will be room for growth.

With the style they play, I think comparing scores from this year to last year in terms of margin of victory can be helpful as well.

Cabrini already beat Rosemont by 16 on the road.  Massey has Rosemont #282, that is nowhere near top 100.

[John Gleich]

Perhaps Rochester could make a stab at it... but I don't see them coming through this upcoming weekend unscathed. Chicago will wear them down and Wash U will beat them. Wash U will need some redemption after losing two in a row... because Emory is going to knock off the Bears in the Friday night game (Heard it here first!).

... I expected Alan Aboona to hit 9 3's tonight in Wash U's loss, not 10. The last one killed me!

FWIW, Rochester beat Chicago by 17. So much for "wearing them down..." but I still like Wash U's chances on Sunday.

[Ralph Turner]

Thanks, Darryl.

Mine is in!  Lots of carnage.  I almost could not find teams for #5 - #9.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Thanks, Darryl.

Mine is in!  Lots of carnage.  I almost could not find teams for #5 - #9.

I feel your pain.  I got through #7 fairly easily, but wracked my brain for 10-15 minutes trying to find anyone deserving of #8!

[Ralph Turner]

Thanks, Darryl.

Mine is in!  Lots of carnage.  I almost could not find teams for #5 - #9.

I feel your pain.  I got through #7 fairly easily, but wracked my brain for 10-15 minutes trying to find anyone deserving of #8!

Yes, I want to have a 7-way for #11 and then go with #12 on!

[Greek Tragedy]

Most guys dream of a 3-way. You set the bar high wanting a 7-way!