Posters' Poll

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

This was exactly the quandary I wrote about earlier.  By the way, I did have the same top 16 as the poll, even if my placement was different (drastically in some cases).

I had Wheaton #7, Trinity #8, and Capital #9.  I had St. Norbert #10 and Buena Vista #11.

I didn't think the losses by those first three were bad enough to move them below the last two (whom I consider good teams, but probably too highly ranked).

In the end, I left all of those slots the same for this week and hope to know more after upcoming games.

[Ralph Turner]

Ralph, you didn't mention it in your 'frames of reference' but I'm curious - did you ever see Raymond before his injury? 

What has me in a quandary is IF he makes it back to full strength.  If he was gone for the season, them are the breaks of the game and Wheaton just has to live with the post-Raymond consequences (probably not even top 25).  But he is back and I can't quite decide how much to go with NOW as opposed to full season record.  Had he not been injured, Wheaton would very possibly still be #1 (and almost certainly still top 5); but he was and they lost three straight games.  It hardly seems right to completely ignore the losses, but it somehow doesn't feel right to weigh them too heavily, either.  (I was one of the four who put them at #14.)

Pat, we ultimately slotted Wheaton just about the same as d3hoops.com - did you have a really wide spread of votes also?

Yes, I saw him on the videostream versus Augie there at Wheaton in the Jan 14th game, 26 points in 28 minutes.  I understand how his play might be called "Jordan-esque"!   

If, when he returns to full strength, that does not detract from his awards or this team's run in the playoffs, IMHO.  I will be glad if Wheaton is seeded in the completely opposite bracket for tourney sake, too. 

[SLP-O-8]

I think that judging BV on their California trip is probably a little too judgment.  It is over xmas break after a long flight out there and most of the players probably hadn't been to California or to the places out there like that so their heads could have been multiple places and they still came out of there with 2 wins.  I understand that you probably haven't seen any other BV games just passing an opinion for those games.

[Titan Q]

I think that judging BV on their California trip is probably a little too judgment.  It is over xmas break after a long flight out there and most of the players probably hadn't been to California or to the places out there like that so their heads could have been multiple places and they still came out of there with 2 wins.  I understand that you probably haven't seen any other BV games just passing an opinion for those games.

What I get tired of is the constant devaluing and pooh-poohing that I hear every time one of these so-called vaunted Midwest or East D-III powers comes to town and gets beat by a SCIAC team. I've heard the same excuses for years: We had to travel, we were tired, we were distracted by the Hollywood sign, the sun burned our retinas, we couldn't get room service in the hotel, our star player didn't have his favorite teddy bear with him, and on and on.

Paging OxyBob...OxyBob, please report to the Posters' Poll room.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Q,

That's ALL we need - OB!

I posed the question to Pat about variation on voting for Wheaton - is that info you would have?  I'm really curious on how folks handle losing while a superstar is out who then comes back.  Discount those losses?  Count the whole schedule (with little if any slack for the absence)?  Other?

[Ralph Turner]

I think that judging BV on their California trip is probably a little too judgment.  It is over xmas break after a long flight out there and most of the players probably hadn't been to California or to the places out there like that so their heads could have been multiple places and they still came out of there with 2 wins.  I understand that you probably haven't seen any other BV games just passing an opinion for those games.

The idea behind the flights is to get the team ready for playoffs (and to reward the team, or use as a recruiting tool).

In this part of the country and on the west coast, we get out of our first round games and then get flown everywhere.

Sectionals 2000  -- #4 McMurry gets flown to #1 Calvin
Sectionals 2001 -- McMurry gets flown to CNU
Sectionals 2002 -- Lewis and Clark hosts CMS then gets flown to Mississippi, then flown to Carthage the next week where they beat a UW-Oshkosh ( which is bussed 125 miles) and lose to host Carthage.
Sectionals 2004  -- SRSU hosts UDallas and then is bussed 400 miles to Trinity. Winning that second game, they then bus 200 miles to El Paso then fly to UPS for sectionals to face Lawrence, who faces UWSP..
Sectionals 2005  -- Trinity beats UTDallas 66-60 then P-P 65-53. They are flown to UWSP and beat Hanover in OT and lose to UWSP by the narrowest margin 61-55 UWSP has in the playoffs.
Sectionals 2006 -- Mississippi College hosted and won the first 2 rounds.  The sectionals are at Wittenberg 773 miles away.  They lose to Transylvania 76-64 which bussed 163 miles, a three hour drive for the Transy fans.
Sectionals 2007 -- #1-seed Mississippi College (25-2) hosts and wins the first and second round and then gets flown to host VWC.  Guilford and Lincoln PA get bussed. VWC beats the Choctaws, 81-55, home crowd blowout.
Sectionals 2008 -- UMHB, the #1 seed, gets bussed to Millsaps, which is centrally located inside a 499 mile radius to host three teams.  Millsaps is bussed the next weekend to WashUStL 496 miles away.  They lose to the host team.

I have not detailed the brackets from all of the west coast teams, but I am now of the strong opinion that I do not forgive a travel game.  If the coach has scheduled it, it meets a need in his/her developing a team.

If we in the Deep South or west coast ever win the tourney, we will have had one or two flights involved.   

[John Gleich]

If we in the Deep South or west coast ever win the tourney, we will have had one or two flights involved.
 

In 04, Point flew to UPS, then, of course, flew to Salem...  When you mean two flights, do you mean before the trip to Salem?

[magicman]

I had Wheaton at #10. Last week I had dropped them to #6 after their 2 losses without Raymond but as sac mentioned I thought the win over Augie on the road WAS validation of how good they are with him playing his 30+ minutes a game so I didn't think they should fall any further. Also had Whitworth at #23 and Centre at #24. Didn't have John Carroll and DePauw. Slotted WPI at #25 but considered Rhode Island and Transy. Went with WPI by virtue of their road win over RIC back in Nov. but they will drop out after their loss tonight to Clark. I Think Elms is ranked too high I have them at #21 and feel that may be a gift. I believe they have the softest schedule of any ranked team.

I'm also the one that has Ithaca at #5. I started them out at #9 in our 1st poll and gradually moved them up as teams above them have lost. But for a badly blown call (The buzzer beater that wasn't against RIT) they could very well be undefeated. Plus they've played 19 games and 14 of them have been on the road. That's got to count for something.       

[Ralph Turner]

If we in the Deep South or west coast ever win the tourney, we will have had one or two flights involved.
 

In 04, Point flew to UPS, then, of course, flew to Salem...  When you mean two flights, do you mean before the trip to Salem?

It is usually the case to have one-two flights before Salem. 

There are usually three teams flying into Salem.  Salem is as close to a neutral floor (as we see in D-1) as we get.

Point Special, I will appreciate your answer to this question.

Would Lawrence have taken UWSP to OT, if the Elite 8 game at UPS game had been played at Quandt or back in Wisconsin, on an isolated neutral floor before 245 fans in Washington state?  I thought that UPS-location "neutralized" the sectional.

Game story -- UWSP/Lawrence

Game Story UWSP-UPS

I thought that Sul Ross State had the best chance to advance by being bracketed where they were.

As pabegg's charts suggest now, #1 South-seed Trinity TX may host a first round 4-team bracket or get a bye in a 3-team pod and then be flown out,  as "#014". It is probably appropriate that the sectional from our region go to Wash UStL. That does look about right.  (However, Trinity TX fans will recall when their Men's #1-seeded team (in the entire nation) only got a bye and then a second round game, before being shipped 1500 miles away to finish the tourney.)

We have wandered far.  Nevertheless, games are games.  It is fair to consider UMHB's win over UWW or BV's performance on the West Coast or the WPI loss at Concordia-Texas in Austin as not being an aberration.

Thanks.

[ziggy]

You can find regional rankings at:
http://www.ncaa.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/ncaa/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/DIIIMBBRANKING2-4-09

[John Gleich]

Would Lawrence have taken UWSP to OT, if the Elite 8 game at UPS game had been played at Quandt or back in Wisconsin, on an isolated neutral floor before 245 fans in Washington state?  I thought that UPS-location "neutralized" the sectional.

Larry U shot amazing in the first half.  That certainly wouldn't have been predicted after the come-from-behind overtime victory the afternoon before, but it just shows the quality team they were when they were at their best.

LU shot 8/10 from 3.  Unbelievable.  They only missed 9 shots in the first half and though I don't really remember too much specifically from that first half, they did get a 10 point lead.  Now, in a gym with 245 people, the roar of the crowd isn't a factor... and the cheers that there were came out about 50/50 if my memory serves me correctly... thus, when LU got their 10 point lead, their fans were cheering, to be true (and I think EVERYONE there cheered louder than usual to try to make up for the lack of sheer numbers from what was an excellently played game), but there wasn't the deflated lack of cheers that there would have been in front of 2800 in SP. 

Now, Point fans are pretty basketball savvy... and over the years, they've had plenty of good things to cheer about, but when they get down, (either from excellent play by an opponent or lackluster play by the Pointers), the Point fans usually cheer to get the team enthusiasm up.  So that lack of cheers would only be temporary, probably right around the time when the team really does need a pick me up.  Lots of times the biggest cheers in the first half are the ones that are in reaction to poor play... to get the ship righted, rather than from outstanding play.  But I digress...

Point is used to playing in front of big crowds in big games, but they also are used to playing in front of small crowds.  Every year, we've gotta take a trip up to Superior, where, though there is usually a small crowd by SP's standards (and a larger one, in general, by Superiors standards), the crowd is usually still a factor.  Superiors hecklers are more effective than those at other schools because you can actually hear everything they say!  And this might be a bad example, because SP lost to Sup not only IN Sup that year, but also at home... but again I digress...

LU shot amazing in the first half.  But Point managed to come back and draw the game back to a 1 point deficit with a half court shot after a rather lackluster (2/8) shooting performance from deep in the first stanza.  If this had been in Point, this would have, of course, electrified the gym, and that previous statement about loud cheers in the first half would be certainly nullified!

In the second half, LU was still on fire... though the fire didn't burn quite as hot.  We only hit 2 3 pointers in the second half too, including one of the best shots I have ever seen... Nick Bennetts game tying bomb with 9 seconds in regulation ... and it was back and forth the whole way. 

To actually answer your question... I don't know if we could have mustered up the will to stick with them due to how amazing they were playing under any different circumstances.  It is so hard to try to take the game out of its context... because we were all so focused on the minute by minute happenings.  The heavy-weight fight analogy is an overused one in the discussion of athletics, but if you look at the running play by play and see that neither team had more than a 4 point lead in the second half, it really DOES look like a blow by blow fight.  And the rallies of the first half, both by LU to take the 10 point lead and Point to wrestle it back at the end of the half.  I'm meandering...  I'm going to refocus...



I think that Lawrence would have at the very 'least taken to OT'/beaten anyone on any floor based on how they played.  They played one of those games that their losing opponent would be resigned to say that it was just one of those nights.  Truly, it was UWSP that had to make the unbelievable plays like the aforementioned half court shot and the Bennett Bomb and Maus's game winner w/ 5 secs in OT.  I mean, two guys off the bench went for 18 and 22 and hit 10/15 3s.  They were just ON.  They came back from an 18 point second half deficit with under 12 minutes and wrestled the lead in just 8 minutes.  They had no business even being in the game, playing against a Point team that had blown out the hosts the night before.

I don't know if having the game in Point would have altered any of these performances.  As it was, the next year, Point hosted Lawrence in the second game and blew em out by 34.  They then again played UPS in the sweet 16, which was a decidedly different game... UPS didn't try to outscore Point like they had tried the year before.  And SP held them to 63 points.  Perhaps these outcomes would have occurred the year before had the game been in Point.  Interestingly, with the second championship run it was another ASC Texas (...) team that provided the biggest test for Point.  Really, it wasn't a test... it was the championship.  And as with Lawrence the year before, Point had to wrest the game from Trinity.  With a tie game at 50 and 2:42 to go, it was Grusczynskis gutsy layup over 6 foot 10 inch Sean Devins that broke the tie. It was not in hand until Nick Bennett's flopping, sprawling runner that sat on the rim for about 20 minutes before falling in.  Jon Krull had another hue play, securing a Devins miss while holding off the much bigger player to allow the game to be sealed with FTs. 

The venue did not matter positively or negatively in this game, as it was too tight to notice the surroundings.  But the celebration afterward was that much more sweet because it was at home.

[Ralph Turner]

Thanks for the great post, Pointer!   

(Correction:  Trinity is from the Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference --SCAC,  not the American Southwest Conference -- ASC). 

[John Gleich]

it was another ASC Texas (...) team that provided the biggest test for Point.

[LogShow]

If we in the Deep South or west coast ever win the tourney, we will have had one or two flights involved.
 

In 04, Point flew to UPS, then, of course, flew to Salem...  When you mean two flights, do you mean before the trip to Salem?

Do you always have to relive your glory days?  It's so painful for us Puget Sound fans.   

[LogShow]

Ahh, Point Special I didn't even see your post (3 above) before I wrote my last post...Puget Sound had a great team that year.  But Point was just flat out better.  I think that Puget Sound would have been able to handle Lawrence or Sul Ross St...we just got the short end of the stick facing you guys first.  I don't know if you were at that game, but that was a sold out pack area and a great atmosphere for a college basketball game.  But Point was very good and savvy.

But you got to give Puget Sound a little credit...even though the final score wasn't close, the game was closer then it appeared on paper, especially in the 2nd half.  I think UPS "wore out"  Point and Point didn't quite have the same legs against Lawrence the following night.  If Point had played Lawrence the first night I do think the game would have been a different story.  But that's just my 2 cents