Posters' Poll

[KnightSlappy]

And I'm sorry, but to say Wooster wasn't tested is a bit of an understatement if you ask me.  Their only regular season losses came at the hands of ranked teams which they also had wins over those teams as well, splitting with both Witt and Wabash.  And I guess not being tested sure hurt them in their run to the championship game...

I would agree that saying Wooster wasn't tested would be an understatement. It's a good thing, then, that I didn't say it!

[

Can you definitively tell me that UST is better than Middlebury because of a two point win?

Ummm. Is that not why they play the games?

They certainly don't play the games to find out who is definitively the better team. They play the game to find out who wins. They play the tournament to find out who wins the championship. I'm not disputing either facts. St. Thomas won and I'm happy for them and their fans, but I'm just disputing whether or not I need vote for the champion as my #1?

In 2005, Calvin lost to Rochester in the semis in Salem on a last second shot. Rochester went on to lose to UWSP in the finals, but Calvin was voted #2 (two spots ahead of Rochester) in the final d3hoops.com poll. Why? Because voters felt that Calvin was a better team that happened to get beat that day.

Calvin went 0-2 versus Adrian this year. Does that mean Adrian was a better team? I don't think so, and I don't know many (non-Adrian) MIAA fans that would say they were, but Adrian won. Twice.

I vote in the poll who I think is the best team. I vote based on a season's body of work.

[ScotsFan]

And I'm sorry, but to say Wooster wasn't tested is a bit of an understatement if you ask me.  Their only regular season losses came at the hands of ranked teams which they also had wins over those teams as well, splitting with both Witt and Wabash.  And I guess not being tested sure hurt them in their run to the championship game...

I would agree that saying Wooster wasn't tested would be an understatement. It's a good thing, then, that I didn't say it!

Sorry, I misinterpreted your post to mean Woostr wasn't tested when you were saying they weren't tested as much as those ranked ahead of them.

Can you definitively tell me that UST is better than Middlebury because of a two point win?

Ummm. Is that not why they play the games?

They certainly don't play the games to find out who is definitively the better team. They play the game to find out who wins. They play the tournament to find out who wins the championship. I'm not disputing either facts. St. Thomas won and I'm happy for them and their fans, but I'm just disputing whether or not I need vote for the champion as my #1?

In 2005, Calvin lost to Rochester in the semis in Salem on a last second shot. Rochester went on to lose to UWSP in the finals, but Calvin was voted #2 (two spots ahead of Rochester) in the final d3hoops.com poll. Why? Because voters felt that Calvin was a better team that happened to get beat that day.

Calvin went 0-2 versus Adrian this year. Does that mean Adrian was a better team? I don't think so, and I don't know many (non-Adrian) MIAA fans that would say they were, but Adrian won. Twice.

I vote in the poll who I think is the best team. I vote based on a season's body of work.

You have a point.  I guess I just see things a little differently.  Especially when we're talking about a final poll.  I guess I look at it as if Williams or Middlebury were difinitively the #1 and #2 team in the country, they would have won their semi-final games which they didn't do.  If they were so good, they should have won their games with Wooster and STU and then been deserving of their #1 and #2 rankings they warrant in your opinion.  UST's losses to St. Olaf, Hamline and Carleton were the reason they were ranked #8 heading into the tournament.  In my eyes, they more than vindicated those losses with the wins the Tommies rattled off in the tournament. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

In (partial) defense of KnightSlappy, I do NOT believe the winner of the title is automatically #1 in a poll.  From d1, I would cite Villanova and NCSt. as teams that won the title but were definitely not the 'best' teams.  In d3, in 2006 I'm still convinced IWU was the 'best' team - they lost to Va Wes (by 2, I believe) and finished 3rd.  Lest I sound like TOO much of a homer, IWU won the d3 World Series this past year, but, having had a losing record with a week or two left in the regular season, even I would not vote them #1!  (But I can live with them getting hot and being the best team when it counted!!)

Having said that, when a team wins the title by 24 points, that is NOT the year I would choose to vote for someone else!   And dropping Woo all the way to 6th (or 5th for another voter) required dropping them behind some teams they had JUST beaten.  In a situation like IWU and the CWS, that might make sense.  But Woo was not exactly chopped liver during the regular season.

I DID have Midd over Woo for 2nd, because that was a matter of scheduling (who faced the Tommies first), not of performance on the court - except Midd lost by 2, Woo lost by 24.

[If I don't post again tonight, I'm having terrible connectivity problems.  Firefox has seized up totally, and Explorer is jumping like crazy and giving me an ulcer! ]

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'll defend KS as well.  I'm of the mind that almost never does the best team win a tournament like this.  Hardly ever happens.  That's why you play a tournament.

I do not feel compelled to vote the national champion #1.  I did this year simply because the last two weekends threw everything into chaos.

I still suspect Whitworth and Williams were the two best teams this year.  Both lost to Wooster (a team clearly among the best).  If either Whitworth or Williams played St. Thomas tomorrow would I pick either one to win?  Yes.  But if Wooster played St. Thomas tomorrow I'd be just as inclined to pick Wooster.  One game doesn't decide anything, but the national champion.

I gave credence to the tournament this year because so many of the best teams played each other.  Filling out a schedule with so many high quality opponents gives a very clear picture of a team's ability.

Wooster lacks some size, but Williams isn't much bigger.  Whitworth has better individual talent, but that doesn't always win games.

St. Thomas beat Stevens Point (the best team in their bracket) then took out Augustana (no slouch, who happened to be a tough matchup for the Tommies' strengths) - all this after taking out a very hot IWU squad.  Not to mention a win over the best defensive team in country (Middlebury).

They earned it.  They came in with a top ten resume and beat everybody.  Are they the best team in the country?  I'm not sure - but nobody made a better case this year.

One loss shouldn't preclude someone from being picked #1.  I'm all for that logic.  This year, for me, six wins topped the one loss (especially when it would have been a crap-shoot to pick which other team got the #1).

[Ralph Turner]

From the Hoopsville board...

I propose that the 7 point home court advantage to the team hosting an opponent who has flown* applies in the Wooster-Whitworth  game as well.

This game is Wooster 69,  Whitworth 64 with 0:41 secs and Wooster's ball.  It becomes a frantic "3FGA and foul 'em" contest for Whitworth from there out.  Look how the 7-point Home Court Advantage changes the nature of the game from the play-by-play in the entire game.

http://www.woosterathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2010-11/boxscores/20110312_2wc5.xml?view=plays

(*3-time zones east as well)

I would have loved to see Whitworth and Wooster played at St Thomas or UWSP!

[Mr. Ypsi]

BTW, Firefox loaded (without my consent) version 3.6.16 this morning after I posted the PP.  I was off-line the rest of the afternoon as it seized up EVERY time.  I tried to load firefox 4 from firefox; no dice.  I tried to load firefox 4 from Explorer; no dice.  My wife (the computer wizard of the family) thought she had it fixed around 8; no dice.  But she finally successfully loaded firefox 4 later this evening - it is as fast as promised!

Wives are a marvelous invention!!

[Ralph Turner]

BTW, Firefox loaded (without my consent) version 3.6.16 this morning after I posted the PP.  I was off-line the rest of the afternoon as it seized up EVERY time.  I tried to load firefox 4 from firefox; no dice.  I tried to load firefox 4 from Explorer; no dice.  My wife (the computer wizard of the family) thought she had it fixed around 8; no dice.  But she finally successfully loaded firefox 4 later this evening - it is as fast as promised!

Wives are a marvelous invention!!

I wish that I could meet Mrs Ypsi!  She would be worth the trip to snowbound Ypsilanti.

[Mr. Ypsi]

BTW, Firefox loaded (without my consent) version 3.6.16 this morning after I posted the PP.  I was off-line the rest of the afternoon as it seized up EVERY time.  I tried to load firefox 4 from firefox; no dice.  I tried to load firefox 4 from Explorer; no dice.  My wife (the computer wizard of the family) thought she had it fixed around 8; no dice.  But she finally successfully loaded firefox 4 later this evening - it is as fast as promised!

Wives are a marvelous invention!!

I wish that I could meet Mrs Ypsi!  She would be worth the trip to snowbound Ypsilanti.

We're no longer snowbound - 8 straight days in the 40s-50s (and two in the 60s) will do that!  We've now gone back to winter temperature-wise, but we have hope.

But we are rapidly approaching the seasons where I MUCH prefer our temperatures to yours!

Since I am already retired, and Mrs. Ypsi is retiring the end of April, we plan to travel a lot.  Just maybe we will make a 'snowbird' tour down your way.

[Gregory Sager]

I understand where you're coming from, O Dean, but I think that there is a qualitative difference between tournament games and regular season games, just as within the regular season there are qualitative differences between conference games and non-conference games. How do I know this? Because generations of basketball players have told me how the higher stakes and the win-or-go-home setup in March amp everything and everyone up and make it harder to play under control, much less win, in a tournament game than a regular-season game, all other factors being equal.

How much of a qualitative difference there is is certainly subject to debate, but I think that the difference is there.

Not all basketball games are created equal.

Wow, so it should have been easier for UST to play under control and win against St. Olaf, Hamline, and Carleton then. Should knocked them down more for not doing so. 

Au contraire. It means that UST's efforts in March more than canceled out the team's three regular-season losses. Incidentally, none of those three was an egg-on-the-face defeat for the Tommies; Carleton was the MIAC co-champ with UST, finished 18-8, and barely missed out on a Pool C berth; Hamline finished third in the MIAC and posted a 16-11 record; and St. Olaf finished fourth and went 17-9 on the season. UST split with St. Olaf and Carleton, crushing the Oles in their other meeting, and took two out of three from Hamline. As to why UST's March run canceled out those three losses, not only were the games tougher in March by dint of the fact that they were tourney games, but as Hoops Fan pointed out the Tommies had a singularly rough path through the tourney to the title.

And as Chuck said (no, not the first paragraph, in which he guzzles the green kool-ade like it's going out of style ), a 24-point win in the championship game is a pretty serious exclamation point on UST's resume.

I'm of the mind that almost never does the best team win a tournament like this.  Hardly ever happens.

That's a little extreme, I think. If I had the time and inclination I could point to a lot of seasons in which the national champ was clearly the best team in the country. But there have certainly been a lot of seasons as well when it wasn't clear-cut. I'd have to say, though, that I can't think offhand of a D3 champ that was the equivalent of an '85 Villanova or an '83 NC State; i.e., a team that clearly wasn't the best in the field, but was merely the hottest over the final two weekends.

[Pat Coleman]

As a Catholic grad, I'd be willing to concede that Catholic 2001 might be on that list for Division III. They did win at Clark in the Elite Eight, straight-up beat Ohio Northern in the semifinals on a neutral floor (No. 3, I believe, in our poll at the time) and then had a fantastic game plan and a ton of familiarity with William Paterson in the final, but it's conceivable they weren't the best team.

[Gregory Sager]

The '01 Catholic team was the first one that popped into my head when I thought of champions whose status as the best team in the country was open to dispute, but I decided to wait and see first if our guru would offer up his alma mater as the sacrificial lamb.

[Pat Coleman]

The '01 Catholic team was the first one that popped into my head when I thought of champions whose status as the best team in the country was open to dispute, but I decided to wait and see first if our guru would offer up his alma mater as the sacrificial lamb.

Appreciate the deference but I think I've been pretty realistic about what a surprising and memorable run that was. We still have a doorstop and a banner in the Salem Civic Center every March.

[nescac1]

I think unless it is really an outlier you just have to give deference to head-to-head results.  If I was picking, today, and my life depended on it from every team I've seen play this year to win one game, I think I would go St. Thomas, Midd, Williams, VWU, Wooster, Amherst, in that order (I haven't seen Whitworth or Stevens Point, both of whom would be in the conversation as well, I'm sure).  But I still ranked Wooster above Williams in my final poll because, even though I think Williams beats them more than five times out of ten, ultimately, they won the game, no matter how it went down.  But I did feel comfortable putting Midd second because, as someone else noted, it is not Midd's fault they played St. Thomas before Wooster did.  Still, St. Thomas looked like the best team in the country to me at the Final Four, and what matters is how you are playing in late March, not mid-January. 

[smedindy]

Sorry I missed the poll. Been hectic recently. Anything controversial come up? 

[AO]

Why people put so much stock into tournament results mystifies me.

I know, it isn't like they issue a trophy at the end of it and declare a national champion or anything...  

Are we running the poll to find out who just won the NC? If so I quit.  

Why are you running a poll?  Do we want to emulate D-1 football?  Quitting would be a good option.  Besides, any poll that doesn't give a single vote to my squad despite their playoff performance against St. Thomas (led for 35min) isn't worth anything!!!