Posters' Poll

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, I don't think I needed to 'guzzle' the green kool-ade to think IWU was the best team in 2006.  After all, Pat predicted the Titans would win, too.  A 2-point loss doesn't necessarily change that.  I never said they were DEFINITELY the best team, but I think they were the best team.

Just to make your head explode, I think they were also the best team in 1996.  It took Rowan (for whom the anti Prop 48 transfer rule was named) 2 put-backs on the final shot to win that game.

Ironically, the only trip to the FF by IWU that I'm NOT going to contest is 2001, which you and Pat both say may be a time that the best team didn't win.  We had absolutely no counter to Willie Pat's star; Catholic did.

[kiltedbryan]

A few points to add to this debate...

In 2005, Calvin lost to Rochester in the semis in Salem on a last second shot. Rochester went on to lose to UWSP in the finals, but Calvin was voted #2 (two spots ahead of Rochester) in the final d3hoops.com poll. Why? Because voters felt that Calvin was a better team that happened to get beat that day.

1. FWIW, this season was the second time that Wooster has finished #2 in the final d3hoops poll...the previous time was when the Fighting Scots were the "beneficiary" of a similar situation in their 2003 trip to the Final Four.  The Scots lost to eventual champion Williams by 2 pts in overtime in the semifinal, and then Williams dispatched tournament cinderella Gustavus Adolphus in the championship game the next day. I think the voters realized that the Gusties were on a magical run, and that Wooster was the second-best team at that Final Four (the Scots beat Hampden-Sydney in the consolation game), and the Scots got the nod in the final poll.

2. I voted all four final four teams as my 1-4 in my poll, but I was highly tempted to slot Whitworth (my #5) above some of the final four participants--heck, I was even tempted to slot them above Wooster, even though I saw Wooster beat them with my own two eyes just two weeks ago. That's just how impressive Whitworth was to me, a view that was reinforced by watching Michael Taylor be the best player on the floor at the DIII All-Star game in Salem.

3. I guess our group and the actual poll group are going to have to agree to disagree on Hope. I've had Hope in my poll for awhile. All of our 10 voters included Hope on their ballot and collectively we gave Hope more total points than they got from all 25 actual voters.

4. I felt like I had a rock-solid strong top seven, and you all agreed. Our collective top seven had only four votes that were outside the top seven (all of them for #7 Amherst). The top six got every single 1-6 vote but one, with one person having Amherst at #6. Even the top ten showed extremely strong agreement, as our top ten teams received all but three of the total available top ten votes. I think we have a pretty good feeling who the best teams in DII were this year.   

[Pat Coleman]

We had absolutely no counter to Willie Pat's star; Catholic did.

Every March I have at least one beer to toast Tim Judge, the relatively unsung senior guard who held Horace Jenkins in check.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, I don't think I needed to 'guzzle' the green kool-ade to think IWU was the best team in 2006.  After all, Pat predicted the Titans would win, too.  A 2-point loss doesn't necessarily change that.  I never said they were DEFINITELY the best team, but I think they were the best team.

Surprise, surprise.

As for Pat's prediction, keep in mind that that's what it was -- a prediction (i.e., a judgment made before the Final Four, not a postmortem made after it).

Just to make your head explode, I think they were also the best team in 1996.

My cranium's not quite that incendiary, but, given your track record, my noggin would be much more likely to be the victim of a volatile incident if you had said that the Titans weren't the best team in 1996.

It took Rowan (for whom the anti Prop 48 transfer rule was named) 2 put-backs on the final shot to win that game.

I didn't think you were even following D3 or IWU at that point. But the consensus I've heard from all of the objective observers I know who were there was that '96 Rowan was one of the greatest D3 teams ever assembled (however dubiously), and that it took an out-of-their-heads performance by what was a great IWU team in order to take the Profs down to the wire ... but that Rowan was, nevertheless, the best team there that year.

And, actually, my jocular "green kool-ade" remark was more about the way that you characteristically managed to stuff several sentences' worth of IWU lore into a post that was ostensibly about whether or not St. Thomas is a worthy #1, shoehorning a mention of IWU's '10 D3 baseball championship into the post as well. Sometimes I'm surprised that your posts don't contain hidden links that play the Illinois Wesleyan fight song when clicked upon.

And, now that I've picked on you enough, let me thank you for once again running the Posters' Poll. Even though I didn't participate in the last couple of polls this season, I still enjoyed reading them and I appreciate the work that you put into it (including the cajoling necessary to get the number of participants up).

[Ralph Turner]

We had absolutely no counter to Willie Pat's star; Catholic did.

Every March I have at least one beer to toast Tim Judge, the relatively unsung senior guard who held Horace Jenkins in check.

Sounds like the subject of a "10-years-later" where are they now off-season article.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, your suggestion of a secret link to play the IWU fight song sounds like a winner - I'll work on it!

As to the inclusion of the 2010 d3 CWS, I readily confess I'm willing to mention that as often as possible!   But do note WHY I included it in that post - it was the clearest example I was aware of where a title-winning team would NOT get my first place vote.  So it was hardly Titan chest-thumping.   (I don't follow d3 baseball nearly as closely as basketball or even football, but if I was running a baseball PP I'm not sure I would have had them even in the top ten on the final ballot.   In a way, that makes the title even sweeter than if they were Chapman or Cortland all along, but it doesn't make them the 'overall best' team.)

[Gregory Sager]

I knew that I was going to regret that bit about you linking the IWU fight song.

[Titan Q]

Just to make your head explode, I think they were also the best team in 1996.  It took Rowan (for whom the anti Prop 48 transfer rule was named) 2 put-backs on the final shot to win that game.

This just is not accurate, Chuck.  The 1996 IWU team was one of the school's best non-Jack Sikma (NAIA) teams, but that Titan team was not better than Rowan.  The 1996 Rowan team - with 4 very good Division I transfer starters, and a "homegrown" star who was actually their best player - was the best NCAA Division III team I have ever seen.   IWU's performance that Friday evening in Salem was extremely impressive, but had the Titans won, it would have been an upset.  It would have been like a D3 team beating a good low D1 team (like an Ohio Valley championship-caliber team).

Without having seen the 1996 Rowan or IWU teams, not to mention the fact that you weren't even following Division III basketball then, I have absolutely no idea why you would make such a claim here.  This is the kind of post from you (of which there are way too many) that makes IWU fans cringe.  I know because I get the e-mails all season long.

[John Gleich]

Uh oh Chuck...  Sounds like they might be thinking about taking away your green card...

[Mr. Ypsi]

Just to make your head explode, I think they were also the best team in 1996.  It took Rowan (for whom the anti Prop 48 transfer rule was named) 2 put-backs on the final shot to win that game.

This just is not accurate, Chuck.  The 1996 IWU team was one of the school's best non-Jack Sikma (NAIA) teams, but that Titan team was not better than Rowan.  The 1996 Rowan team - with 4 very good Division I transfer starters, and a "homegrown" star who was actually their best player - was the best NCAA Division III team I have ever seen.   IWU's performance that Friday evening in Salem was extremely impressive, but had the Titans won, it would have been an upset.  It would have been like a D3 team beating a good low D1 team (like an Ohio Valley championship-caliber team).

Without having seen the 1996 Rowan or IWU teams, not to mention the fact that you weren't even following Division III basketball then, I have absolutely no idea why you would make such a claim here.  This is the kind of post from you (of which there are way too many) that makes IWU fans cringe.  I know because I get the e-mails all season long.

Bob, I wasn't following baseball in 1920, either, but still think the Red Sox owner selling (not even trading for value, but selling!) their best player to the Yankees was despicable!   Pretty much all I know about Rowan/IWU is from Coach Bridges' book.  I will yield to consensus opinion that Rowan was probably the better team overall, with one caveat: while the way they assembled was within the rules then in place, it was deemed so against the philosophy of d3 that the prop-48 loophole was closed the very next season (and is generally termed the 'Rowan rule').  Thus I will stand by my conclusion that IWU was probably the best 'real' D3 team in 1996.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Following up on two points:

IWU was within ONE defensive rebound late of winning the game, in which case this whole scenario would be long forgotten.   Coach Bridges quotes a Roanoke fan who when asked if Hope could beat Rowan the next night replied: "Not a chance, Rowan just beat the best Division III team I've ever seen."  (In fairness, the fan had probably seen IWU lead the #1-seeded home-team Roanoke by FORTY-SEVEN points at halftime just 7 days earlier [no Titan starter saw a single minute of playing time in the second half] - perhaps not a neutral observer! )

The topic of the 1996 FF has come up on the MIAA board several times.  My Hope friends and I both agree that a Hope/IWU final would have been more fitting for d3 (though somehow we can't seem to reach a consensus on who would have won )!

[Mr. Ypsi]

One last thing on the d1 comparisons - since this year for the first time ever there will not be a #1 OR #2 seed in the FF, we may well get a new example to join Villanova and NCSt.!  (Though maybe not - they both beat a prohibitive favorite to win.)

I have no particular dog in the fight, but if the winner of Butler/VCU absolutely crushes the winner of Kentucky/UConn, I will have tears of joy streaming down my face!  What a triumph of the 'little guys' that would be!

[Ralph Turner]

One last thing on the d1 comparisons - since this year for the first time ever there will not be a #1 OR #2 seed in the FF, we may well get a new example to join Villanova and NCSt.!  (Though maybe not - they both beat a prohibitive favorite to win.)

I have no particular dog in the fight, but if the winner of Butler/VCU absolutely crushes the winner of Kentucky/UConn, I will have tears of joy streaming down my face!  What a triumph of the 'little guys' that would be!

I will, too.  The parity in D-1 has become incredible.  I have a hard time figuring whether I want Butler ("Hoosiers" fame) or VCU (from First Four to Final Four) to win.

[Mr. Ypsi]

One last thing on the d1 comparisons - since this year for the first time ever there will not be a #1 OR #2 seed in the FF, we may well get a new example to join Villanova and NCSt.!  (Though maybe not - they both beat a prohibitive favorite to win.)

I have no particular dog in the fight, but if the winner of Butler/VCU absolutely crushes the winner of Kentucky/UConn, I will have tears of joy streaming down my face!  What a triumph of the 'little guys' that would be!

I will, too.  The parity in D-1 has become incredible.  I have a hard time figuring whether I want Butler ("Hoosiers" fame) or VCU (from First Four to Final Four) to win.

I share your indecision, but VCU would be the first team in history to play SEVEN games in the tourney, so I think I'll favor them (slightly).

Although Kentucky won their conference tourney, I believe this will also be the first FF without a regular season champion (or did Butler win the Horizon League?).

[smedindy]

Butler was in a 3-way tie for the Horizon championship with Cleveland State and UW - Milwaukee.

Amazingly, they lost 62-60 to Youngstown State - a team that went 9-21 during the season.

VCU finished 4th in the CAA! They also lost by 10 to a 12-19 Georgia State team and lost by 11 at 11-20 Northeastern.

UConn, if people forget, played in the Big East play-in play-in game.

Kentucky is the only one that doesn't have a big backstory, except that Princeton almost beat 'em in Round 1.