Posters' Poll

[MeOak21]

It appears you have the ability to be more objective than myself.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I agree HF - very resonable and objective thought process.  I for one, would have a hard time viewing the tournament games as a "week of games" (too much emotional connection for me) but I think it's a pretty good approach.

I also think it's hard to know what to do with the Elmhurst, Oshkosh, Wittenburgs of the world.  Hard to penalize a team that didn't play - although the fact that they were not in the tournament did mean that in most cases they lost at least one game since the last poll (conference tournament).

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

We did the last poll after the conference tournament.  Wittenberg was no longer on my radar at that point.

Honestly, I admit you've shown restraint not lambasting me for keeping Hope so far down, when I was obviously at least partially wrong about them this year.  They were indeed better than I expected them to be, even though they didn't exactly get the murderer's row of Midwest teams in the tournament.  They were just one stuck beneath that string of non-qualifiers that I couldn't find it in my heart to demote.  The only team that did make the mighty leap up was Guilford; moving Hope as well would have required me to drop another team down below the 13-15 spots and I didn't feel anyone else deserved such a demotion.  I hope you'll understand it was more about not punishing someone above them as it was about rewarding Hope.

In the end this year I went 1-1-1 on my crazy ideas.  Hope was plenty good, WPI was totally not and Mary-Hardin Baylor was somewhere in between.



By the way, it's a heck of a lot easier to look at the tournament objectively when your alma mater has no chance of ever being competitive, even if by some miracle it became competitive within it's own conference someday.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

By the way, it's a heck of a lot easier to look at the tournament objectively when your alma mater has no chance of ever being competitive, even if by some miracle it became competitive within it's own conference someday.

No doubt about that one.   

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Forgot this:

Poster's Poll

Top 25

Final March 19, 2007:

1.   Amherst
2.   Stevens Point
3.   Wooster
4.   Virginia Wesleyan
5.   Washington U
6.   Augustana
7.   Mississippi College
8.   St. Thomas
9.   Elmhurst
10. Guilford
11. Whitworth
12. Brandeis
13. Wheaton
14. La Crosse
15. Oshkosh
16. Hope
17. Rhode Island College
18. Brockport State
19. Lincoln
20. Aurora
21. Centre
22. Trinity (CT)
23. Carroll
24. Chicago
25. Stevens

OK, I'll ask - UWSP #2?

UWSP 2 and Hope 16? Please!

Your thoughts on UWSP aren't illogical but I can't agree with so little emphasis placed on the NCAA tourney. The whole reason you play the regular season is to get to the Tourney, then you play the Tourney to win!!! If UWSP can't win at home in the Sweet Sixteen they can't be in the top 5!!!  And clearly I am biased on Hope but 16!!! Even if you didn't see them play once all year their run in the tourney, where they played Wash U a whole lot closer than UWSP did suggests they are better than 16. Elmhurst didn't even make the dance and they are in the top 10!!!!

[sac]

Hoops Fan has been voting Hope in the bottom half of his poll all year, he's sticking with how he voted and I don't think you could criticize for that.  He'd be moving them up 10-14 spots or more if he followed how most voted Hope and I'm not sure beating Chicago, Calvin and Carroll warrants that big of a move.  I think I moved them up 5 spots if I'm recalling my last poll correctly, over 5 teams, 3 that didn't go as far in the tournament and 2 who didn't make the tournament.

Stevens Point was physically the best team I saw in person this year, but their lack of depth did them in with me.  I'd be comfortable in saying they could handle Wooster on most nights but they'd have trouble with Woosters depth.......and the fact that they didn't handle a good Washington team (which was not a 12 point loss, more like 20) left them out of my top 4 but solidly at #5.  Even though they're at #5, there's a pretty slim difference between anyone in the top 10 in my opinion and when taking the whole season into consideration I think you could come up with any ranking of the top 7 or 8 in any order with Amherst #1 and probably be ok.


As for the non-tournament teams, Oshkosh moved up for me mostly because 3 teams I had ranked ahead disappointed in the tournament so badly.......St. Thomas, Augustana and Miss Coll.  Elmhurst and Witt moved down a couple only because a couple teams behind them had good tournament runs  Hope/Guilford and Brockport/Carroll


Looking back at my poll I probably punished Miss College too much, but for the 3rd straight year they got beat handilly in the Sweet 16 stepping out of the deep south/far western teams, after much praise during the regular season.   

I didn't vote for DePauw either.

[John Gleich]

The UWSP loss to Wash U was one of two bad shooting nights all year long.  And Point lost both games.  Part of this could be due to Wash U, but there were so many OPEN shots that simply didn't fall.  Point shot 22% from 3 (20% worse than the rest of the season) and 37.1% for the game (12% worse than the rest of the season).

Pete Rortvedt shot 1/11.  He averages over three 3's per game and makes them at a 41.1% clip.  He shot 9% from deep for the game.

Jon Krull shot 3/13.  He averages almost two 3's per game, but has the potential of scoring spurts (his three 3's were on 3 successive possessions, and the 4th just rimmed out).  He makes them at a 41.1% clip as well.  He shot 23.1 % for the game.

Steve Hicklin shot 2/7.  He averages almost three 3's per game and also has the potential of scoring spurts.  He makes them at a clip of 50% clip (which was top 3 in the country all season long).  He shot 28.6% for the game.

Point's three best shooters had off nights.  Certainly this could be because of Wash U's defense, but I don't think it can be entirely attributed to this.

Now, Point didn't help themselves by turning the ball over 12 times (50% times than they averaged, per game for the year), and Point had a drought of 5 minutes without a basket.  But this was not a situation that was limited to the 5 mins in the second half.  Expect for the Krull back-to-back-to-back three's in the first half, and a barrage of shots that came in the last two minutes, Point was off almost all night, and this happened, like I said earlier, only one time during the season.

It really was a prime example that a team that lived by the three died by it on that particular night.


Also, interestingly Sac, Point played just 6 players the game that you saw.  Typically, Coach Semling brought 1-2 more players in for about 8-10 minutes to spell the starters.  It really depended upon who was playing well and the situation of what type of team Point was playing.

[Ralph Turner]

Even tho' DePauw is in the SCAC, I really consider them a Great Lakes/Midwest team, rather than a South Region team.

[Mr. Ypsi]

My ballot (with notes):

1. Amherst - duh! (Actually I do NOT feel required to vote the champ #1 [they're already the champ!], but aside from NCSt in '83 and 'nova in '85 I can't think of any I wouldn't, and none in d3.)
2. Va Wes
3. Wash U - again, not out of necessity (last year I put IWU over Witt for #2 - both lost to Va Wes, both beat Amherst, that Witt finished 2nd was a quirk of bracketing, not a bball result; and I ALMOST put Lawrence over Witt in #3), but I saw no good reason not to - between them they beat all the logical alternatives
4. UWSP
5. Woo - discussed 4 and 5 in an earlier post
6. Hope - I've had them solid top 10 since seeing them in Adrian, though HOW good they were was hard to say since the MIAA (save Calvin) never challenged them
7. Guilford - I SUSPECT we've all overreacted to the Lincoln win, but if they could avoid Va Wes, they'd be nearly unbeaten on the year!  (And my gut hunch is that if the Marlins had gone 3OT instead of the Quakers, Guilford would have been in Salem.)
8. Oshkosh - also discussed in an earlier post
9. Augie - yeah, a shocking loss (though by only 4, and eased slightly by Carroll doing the same thing to the Tommies); still they were both the regular season and tourney champs of the toughest conference in d3 this year.
10. Miss Coll - yeah, they were stomped (but Va Wes IS pretty good!); for their total season's work, I can't see punishing them more, especially since they deserved a home game
11. Whitworth - being in d3 Siberia, I just don't know whether they are too high or too low, but this seemed about right
12. RIC - not much of a schedule (before or IN the tourney), but they won almost all of them and made the Elite Eight
13. Carroll - WHAT A RUN while it lasted!  Still, the MWC was pretty weak this year, yet they only finished second (I was REALLY tempted to put Grinnell somewhere, but I just knew they'd be a solo outlier even if I did!)
14. St Thomas - somehow I just could never get on the Tommies' bandwagon; I was tempted to put them lower, but thought that would be unfair
15. Elmhurst - Augie's flame-out sure didn't help them, but perhaps they would NOT have flopped?
16. La Crosse - any team that can go 3-0 vs Oshkosh deserves some props!
17. Witt - it is SO hard to evaluate Woo and Witt (and, this year, Hope) because of the weakness of most of their conference mates.  In retrospect, I think I have them too high
18. Brockport - sure they made the Elite Eight, but some unranked team HAD to win that part of the bracket!  Frankly, I was more impressed with their taking Woo to OT than by any of their wins
19. Chicago - solid, but not spectacular, overall year
20. JCU - they won a power conference, they beat Lake Erie at (in?) the lake, they just didn't really impress me but deserve to go somewhere!
21. Stevens - their tourney performance deserves some mention, though this MIGHT be too high
22. Brandeis - somebody's got to be #22 and it never hurts to suck up to Judges!  More seriously, I thought the bants were for real.
23. Lincoln - while Guilford MAY be overranked, taking them to 3OTs deserves the nod
24. Wheaton - although 13th may be crazy, the Thunder are a solid 20-30 team (and they did beat Hope!)
25. Aurora - for the total season, they may deserve #25, but I kinda wish I'd bit the bullet and gone with Grinnell (see Carroll above) or Calvin (they beat Hope TWICE, nevermind the three losses!)

[Ralph Turner]

I can follow your logic, and I hope that this is the ultimate value of your year's compilation.

I believe that the posters' poll help us fans to hash out what is happening in Pat's poll and still preserves the anonymity that we are glad that it (the official Top 25) has.

Our discussions have covered most of the issues that are raised in the official Top 25.

I look forward to next year's edition!

[diehardfan]

Seriously, I don't know how you guys do this all season long. There are some teams placement that I def have an opinion on... but I look at my poll and sometimes I think... yeah, I got that right, and sometimes I'm just not happy with it and am super confused.

[Gregory Sager]

OK, here we get to answer the questions:

I'll admit, I put less emphasis on the tournament than most, perhaps even less than I would otherwise be inclined to do.  I'm not going to put undue influence on these games just because they came in the tournament.  I just treated the tournament like a "week" of games, judging whether teams should move up or down based on performance.

That's a bold and counterintuitive stance, HF, and while I didn't subscribe to it myself when I gave Chuck my final Top 25 ballot I'll admit that your reasoning is certainly valid.

And clearly I am biased on Hope but 16!!! Even if you didn't see them play once all year their run in the tourney, where they played Wash U a whole lot closer than UWSP did suggests they are better than 16. Elmhurst didn't even make the dance and they are in the top 10!!!!

At the risk of having some of you Hopesters go ballistic on me, there were several of us who were sitting in Switzerland during the Aurora regional who quietly concurred with each other at the end of the weekend that we thought Elmhurst was better than any of the four teams present, and that the Bluejays would've beaten either of the MIAA teams on a neutral floor.

And, no, I was not the first member of the Swiss Army to say it. But I did agree with that conclusion. However, in the end I relented and, contra HF, put Hope ninth on my ballot and Elmhurst twelfth because of the Elite Eight run by the Dutch. So I suppose this means that I'm outing myself as a flaming hypocrite. Oh, well ... I'll live.

Seriously, I don't know how you guys do this all season long. There are some teams placement that I def have an opinion on... but I look at my poll and sometimes I think... yeah, I got that right, and sometimes I'm just not happy with it and am super confused.

Don't feel bad, April. This was a super-confused kind of year. My Top 25 votes show little rhyme or reason from one week to the next (as opposed to the marked consistency of, say, HF in sticking to his guns and keeping Hope low), although each week I felt that I had good reasons for stacking them up the way that I did.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I think I moved them up 5 spots if I'm recalling my last poll correctly, over 5 teams, 3 that didn't go as far in the tournament and 2 who didn't make the tournament.

I moved Hope up four spots.  Again, I mentioned that Hope is stuck behind three teams that didn't get into the tournament and the only reason I didn't move them up higher (ie into the top 15, where they belong) is because I felt in unfair to penalize those teams that didn't get in (when they were obviously among the best teams around).

The top 12 is rare air and none of those teams were so overwhelmingly disappointing that they deserved to drop the (at least) four spots it would have taken for me to put Hope in.  You can fault the logic of leaving the non-tournament teams in their spots, but that's what I decided to do.

I've already said I underestimated Hope this year.  I'm not sure what else I can do.  I'm still not convinced their top 10, but I'm willing to admit top 15 with out a second thought.

[smedindy]

It was fun, and I loved doing this. And I only wish the flyer I took on Loras paid off, but you know, that's the way it bounces.

[sac]

I bet Switzerland thought Augustana could handle Carroll as well.