MBB: USA South Conference

[narch]

I know there are many fans out there that have said with less then a second left yell "why did you call a foul there."  Player hits two free throws and wins the ball game.  Either side could argue he hit the FT's so he won. Player control. But the ref called a foul when play could have decided the game.  Ref control. 

what is a foul in the first 10 seconds of a game is a foul in the last 10 seconds, as well...period...end of discussion

I have played games football and basketball where officals have said "take it easy on them." If that isn't ref control then, I don't know what is.

i'm not sure of the context of your quote, but isn't it the job of the officials to ensure that a game is being played fairly and within the rules?...if an official notices an extra shove or a foul that is a little harder than necessary and says "take it easy", that's what they are supposed to do...it's his/her JOB to make sure that the players play within the boundries of the rules and fair play...in other words, to CONTROL the play of the game - if you didn't have officials, you'd have chaos on the court (or field)

old_lion - i haven't talked to my old friend in a few weeks, but knowing him the way i do, i'll bet he doesn't use officiating as an excuse for losing a couple of games - and i used the term "usually" because, unfortunately, nobody is perfect...in the case of a game in which the officiating seems somewhat one-sided, good teams adjust - even with my "usually" caveat, i still believe wholeheartedly (100% of the time) that officiating DOES NOT determine the outcome of games

[cnubbballer]

 

Narch, I agree with most of what you're saying.  However, a good official communicates well and often.  You'll hear the good refs do this throughout a game.  The players have to adjust, but a good referee can help them adjust.  Granted it does not always happen.  But when one team makes 41 trips to the line and the other 29 it's a little hard to get into a rhythm and is definitely NOT a fan friendly game.  I went to most every game last year at CNU and have been to many high schools games in this area.  Many of the refs are the same.   A couple have a "serious" tude.  We had one particular ref who would "tee" you up if you exhaled wrong and he REALLY seemed to enjoy it.  But will have to say the majority are very, very good.

Refs do not win or lose games, but they can impact the ebb and flow of a game.   

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

When I said "take it easy on them" I mean that.  We could be beating a team by 20+ points and they want us to take it easy on them.  I recall one incident when I was playing football in high school and the official told me to take it easy on the QB.  I was an OLB and sacked the guy.  I couldn't believe they would say that.  I told the coach the ref told me to to take it easy.  (Coach said What?, well don't worry about it.) 

Again though I never said an official wins or loses a ball game, but do have to agree it messes up the flow of the game.

Agreed a foul in the first 10 secs is a foul in the last 10 secs.  Two differences though one foul can decide the game (The last 10 seconds there probably is FT's coming unlike the first 10 secs) 

I would say its harder to be a ref in basketball then football because you always have fans (indoors where sound is concentrated) (especially at d3 level where there aren't 20,000+ at a game asking for a call) and a coach up and down the box trying to "work the officals" to get a call which he/she could get within the last 10 secs.  So you could say getting a foul called in the last 10 secs with the game on the line is a result of good coaching.

[old_lion]

old_lion - i haven't talked to my old friend in a few weeks, but knowing him the way i do, i'll bet he doesn't use officiating as an excuse for losing a couple of games - and i used the term "usually" because, unfortunately, nobody is perfect...in the case of a game in which the officiating seems somewhat one-sided, good teams adjust - even with my "usually" caveat, i still believe wholeheartedly (100% of the time) that officiating DOES NOT determine the outcome of games

Ok narch, interesting discussion we have going here ... but let's stick to the facts.

No one has said that "officiating was an excuse for losing a couple of games". I said that, "a ref was the MVP of the Ferrum/Piedmont game" ... meaning literally, that he was an overly significant (and wrongful) determining factor in the outcome of the game ... meaning literally, that while Ferrum could not stop Baldwin, he could ...and did, with a couple of BS foul calls.

Ferrum does great stats ... you can look it up ...
http://www.ferrum.edu/athletics/Basketball-M/2006-07%20Stats/fcm1118.htm#GAME.BX2


Good teams adjust, huh? OK, since you seem to be 100% sure of your position, tell me how you'd "adjust" to this hypothetical situation ...

You are the Coach of a very undersized team, but you have one talented big man whose having a very good day. In fact, he's by far the best scorer and rebounder in the gym that day. He's had a good 1st half ... 13 pts, 5 reb, 1 foul in 13 minutes ... but you are down 37/26 at halftime.

You come out strong in the 2nd half and make a run. In the first 3 minutes, you outscore them 13 to 2 and tie it up. Unfortunately, over that same 3 minutes, your big guy (while scoring 10 points and getting 3 rebounds) commits his 2nd and 3rd fouls. One of them was sort of cheap, but he commits them. So you have to sit him for awhile ... about 5 minutes.

So you put him back in at about the 12 minute mark. Almost immediately (about a minute) he is charged with his 4th foul on a ridiculous call where he wasn't even in the area. Clearly the official just called out the wrong #. You protest respectfully, and at length, but he refuses to correct it. Whether this is simply incompetence, or blatant cheating, you have no way of knowing, but it doesn't matter. The 4th foul is on the books and you have to sit him again ... now with your team down 2.

Your under sized team battles valiantly, actually taking the lead a couple of times ... but with about 5 minutes to go you are down 4 and it's starting to slip away, their over whelming size is starting to wear you down, so you have to bring him back. Almost immediately (less than a minute) Mr MVP ref calls holding, away from the ball, and your big guy is gone. Even though, you know banging and fighting for position goes on between "the bigs" the entire game, you can't believe your guy would do something, away from the ball, so blatant, in that situation, to warrant being called. In fact, you know he wouldn't. But, the 5th foul is on the books and he is gone.

So tell me, Mr. "officiating DOES NOT determine the outcome of games", how are you going to adjust to that situation?

And remember you are the one that said, "(100% of the time) that officiating DOES NOT determine the outcome of games" ... well, I'm usually skeptical of people who speak in absolutes, but if that's where you want to "draw your line in the sand", go for it.   

All I said was that, "a ref was the MVP of the Ferrum/Piedmont game" ... meaning literally, that he was an overly significant (and wrongful) determining factor in the outcome of the game ... and he was. That's not an excuse ... that's a fact. Hey, stuff happens. No one ever said life was 100% fair. At least not to me ... I don't deal with too many people who speak in absolutes.  8)

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

Well said Old Lion well said.  It looks this debate is centered around the mascots of "lions"  Monarchs, Lions, and Pride (Grant it Narch has the understanding Pride meaning lady lions.  Where pride means leader of the pack or pride-group of lions) 

Pride-

6. the best of a group, class, society, etc
10. a group of lions. 

(Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Pride )

Or Pride as in PrideSportBBallGuy

1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.  (My opinion but frankly not anyone else)

[Monarch96]

Great way to start for the monarchs. I think this team will get better and better. I'm glad McBride was able to contribute. I think that's the key for them. One or two of those bigs have got to be a factor, outside of radmonovic. 

Go Monarchs

[CNU85]

Ok narch, interesting discussion we have going here ... but let's stick to the facts.

not really 

[old_lion]

not really 

Sorry to bore you ... you do know how to log off, right?   

[notamensa]

And remember you are the one that said, "(100% of the time) that officiating DOES NOT determine the outcome of games" ... well, I'm usually skeptical of people who speak in absolutes, but if that's where you want to "draw your line in the sand", go for it.   

All I said was that, "a ref was the MVP of the Ferrum/Piedmont game" ... meaning literally, that he was an overly significant (and wrongful) determining factor in the outcome of the game ... and he was. That's not an excuse ... that's a fact. Hey, stuff happens. No one ever said life was 100% fair. At least not to me ... I don't deal with too many people who speak in absolutes.  8)

everyone seems to be really upset over this ref issue. sorry if i opened old wounds by asking if people thought the refs were sending an early season message by calling the game so closely friday night. it wasnt a complaint, just a question. it seems that folks want to beat up on narch, and i dont see why. old lion has even added "100% of the time" to narchs comments, which narch did not say. go back and read it. that seems like a blatant mis-quote to me. narch said in the same post that "the calls usually even out over the course of a game". i emphasize the word "usually" here to make the point thast narch is definitely not speaking in absolutes. lets erase all the lines in the sand and talk about basketball.

[notamensa]

any speculation on how far cnu will fall when the new top-25 is posted? i think right in the middle of those also receiving votes but not in the top-25. i also think that york (ny) should definitely get some votes. how could they not have had even a single vote in the pre-season top-25 when they were voted pre-season #1 in their division (2 divisions in their conference)? they were a ncaa tournament team, after all.

[notamensa]

any speculation on how far cnu will fall when the new top-25 is posted? i think right in the middle of those also receiving votes but not in the top-25. i also think that york (ny) should definitely get some votes. how could they not have had even a single vote in the pre-season top-25 when they were voted pre-season #1 in their division (2 divisions in their conference)? they were a ncaa tournament team, after all.

cnus new ranking will be determined by the timing of the new top-25 in relation to the vwc game tonight. my thought above was based on the new poll being announced before the vwc game. when are the new polls typically announced?

[old_lion]

old_lion - i haven't talked to my old friend in a few weeks, but knowing him the way i do, i'll bet he doesn't use officiating as an excuse for losing a couple of games - and i used the term "usually" because, unfortunately, nobody is perfect...in the case of a game in which the officiating seems somewhat one-sided, good teams adjust - even with my "usually" caveat, i still believe wholeheartedly (100% of the time) that officiating DOES NOT determine the outcome of games

Wrong notamensa, this is the exact quote, copied from above ... color added to help you focus ...  

narch and I aren't upset ... just having a theoretical discussion, that apparently you aren't following ... that's OK, lots of us are notamensa.

[notamensa]

my bad. i should have stayed out of it. i was going by his original post (1766). it appears that he did indeed draw a line in the sand with the 100% comment. i still think though that we should all just move on.

[notamensa]

my ride is here so im headed home for turkey day now. wish i could see the vwc game tonight but my gal awaits. not sure my would have made it up the grade coming out of the hr tunnel anyway.

[pride1fan]

Narch, as soon as the Monarchs lose you will be blaming the refs. What a dickhead.