MBB: USA South Conference

[Monarch96]

a) there is a difference between denying the passing lanes and going for steals
b) there is a difference between contesting shots and going for blocks

If you have a team full of guys going for steals and blocks, you have a very undisciplined defense and probably a very bad team.  As I posted earlier, going for steals and missing put your team defense in 4 on 5 situations and a well coached team is going to take advantage of those situations.  If you have guys constantly going for block shots a well coach team is not only going to shot fake and get them into foul trouble, but also is going to have an advantage on the offensive glass. Since it is impossible to block out the shooter if you are in the air flying after a shot.

Good luck to all USA South schools during the holidays

[captj]

white (su) i'm not sold on.  He did have alot of steals and blocks, but both of those stats are very misleading.  Nothing breaks down a team defense like missed steals and blocks, because when you miss steals it creates 5 on 4 advantages for the offense. missed blocks take you out of position for rebounds. 

96 –

I can't believe you're still pushing this.  Here's your quote.  You were trying to diminish a player because he had a lot of steals and blocks!?  It just doesn't make sense.

I understand your point that going for a steal and leaving yourself out of position is bad.  But that's what you call "bad defense", and players who accumulate lots of steals are NOT bad defenders.  Your implication is that because he was successful on so many steals, he had to have put his team at a disadvantage defensively.  It just doesn't make sense.

The same goes for blocks.  I understand that going for a pump fake and leaving yourself out of position is bad, very bad.  But again, that's just not being a very good defender.  I believe that, by definition, guys who get lots of blocks are good defenders.  And don't tell me that Al White, who had 898 career rebounds (8.8/gm), more than anyone else in SU history, put himself "out of position for rebounds" because he had a lot of blocks!  It just doesn't make sense.

[captj]

If you have a team full of guys going for steals and blocks, you have a very undisciplined defense and probably a very bad team. 

[Monarch96]

captj;
my point is when picking an all-time team you need to look at more than the numbers someone puts up, because sometimes numbers can be misleading based on the system/ and or era that a player plays.  I will take McNair over White if I had the choice, I'm done with that conversation.

Narch give me the scoop on the monarchs, looks like we need grant to pick it up and for thomas to be more consistant. The new guy from the football team made a nice debut maybe he will free those two up for some easy looks.

[ballgame]

Monarch...good points...however I beg to differ on a few counts.  If you over play the passing lanes and you're aggressive shouldn't steals be a result....and isn't the result of a steal usually an easy basket?  I agree going for steals CAN get you in trouble if not part of your defensive scheme...but going for steals ARE in a lot of teams defensive schemes.  

Pump fakes are an effective weapon....but shouldn't the shot blocker be just as disciplined NOT to go for a fake.   I know they teach you not to leave your feet down in the good old Tar Heel state!  Plus the shot block is also an effective tool for the "mental" aspect of the game.  If a guy blocks a couple of shots, don't you think the other team is aware of where this "shot blocker" is when they go to the hole and it might occasionally cause an offensive player to alter a shot.  I don't know to many folks who like to have "Nike" tattooed on their forehead!  And someone who goes for a pump fake every time is not a "shot blocker" by my definition.  

[Monarch96]

Ballgame
Good points also.  IN MY OPIONION, teams that play the passing lanes are not necessarily looking for steals, but are trying to force their opponent further from the basket when running their offense, and /or trying to take away their opponents initial entries into their offense.  I agree that alot of teams overplay the passing lanes, but this strategy is very difficult to employ vs. well coached teams with fundametally sound players.  Because it opens you up to backdoor cuts and dribble penetration.
Yes the "shot blocker" intimidates some teams.  It is very difficult to block the shot of the person that you are guarding if he is fundamentally sound. Therefore most blocked shots come from helpside defense.  When you have an aggressive shot blocker, it forces your perimeter players to rotate inside to rebound on the weakside against larger players and it allow perimeter players to spot up on the weakside for open looks. 
I've played with and coached some very good shot-blockers and i've seen first hand the advantages and disadvantages of having them on the floor.

[captj]

McNair is another story.  I see that he put up 1739 points for his career, very impressive.  But he's nowhere else in the Methodist record book, at least on the website (which is all that I have to go on).  So, that means that, for a career, he had less than 530 rebs, less than 214 assts, less than 138 stls, and less than 45 blcks.  And it may have been far less than these numbers because these are the lowest values in the record books on the website.  And you want to put him in instead of Al White (SU), who had 2001 pts, 898 rebs, 190 stls & 108 blks?! 

White had 262 more points than McNair
White had at least 368 more rebounds than McNair
White had at least 52 more steals than McNair
White had at least 63 more blocks than McNair

I'm saying "at least" because those are the lowest values in the Monarch records, which means that McNair had less than that, perhaps MUCH less than that.

Why am I defending a Hornet?  Where are you shotblocker and obnoxious?  Anyone else want to put McNair on our first team just because " you need to look at more than the numbers someone puts up"?

[captj]

96 -

I forgot to ask; what did McNair do better than White?

[Monarch96]

CaptJ
I love this site 8)
McNair had range from about two steps behind the 3pt. line.  he had a great mid-range game and could finish at the rim in transition and in the half ct.  He usually guarded the other teams best perimeter player and his last two years eveyone knew he was getting the ball and he still put up numbers.  White played the 4 spot and McNair the 2/3  so white should have more rebs. and blks.  The steals thing is more about coaching philosophies then pure ability.   If you can find someone who seen both of these guys play ask them who the better player was.

My first team
pg: Dixon (su)
2g:

[Monarch96]

Let me finish that thought

pg: Dixon (su)
2g: McNair (mc)
sf:  Strothers (cnu)
pf:  Boykins (cnu)
c:   Foxx (fc)

[captj]

96 –

I appreciate your passion for your guy, I'm sure that he was a great player.  And I appreciate that you got to see him do all those things that impressed you so much.  But I'm sure that Al White did a lot of things really, really well also.  But here's the thing; I'll bet that NONE of the people who will be picking the "official" all-time team will have seen every player that should be considered.  So, they (and we) have to go by stats.  That's all we have.  To dismiss a guy with stats far greater than your guy without some tangible reason for doing so is just ridiculous. 

Someone else weigh in here, obviously neither of us are going to sway the other.

[narch]

To dismiss a guy with stats far greater than your guy without some tangible reason for doing so is just ridiculous. 

it's the system, silly...no monarch will EVER accumulate huge numbers, because that's not the way the system at mc works - the thing that was so impressive about mcnair is that he could put up 26 without NEEDING to get the ball every time out - i looked at boxscores and saw 25+ on numerous occassions when i thought he had scored 15-17 points because he was so effortless and efficient - i could be wrong (and unfortunately i don't have the stats to find out), but i think he was top 3 or 4 in fg% as a senior, and trust me, montrell took a lot of 3's - he was physical, smart and played hard on both ends - i never saw white, but mcnair could CLEARLY play...his senior year i thought he was the best perimeter player in the diac, hands down

Narch give me the scoop on the monarchs, looks like we need grant to pick it up and for thomas to be more consistant. The new guy from the football team made a nice debut maybe he will free those two up for some easy looks.

grant needs to start shooting better, thomas needs to score more consistently, lee needs to show up, mcdonald and mcbryde need to play to their vast potential and SOMEBODY needs to help thomas on the blocks...he's led the team with 9 rebs the last 2 games

i know the coaches (and hoops hops) are completely sold on hairston at the point, but i'd like to see him coming off the bench and slide grant back to the point - when the monarchs played with grant at the 1 and lee at the 2 last year is when they were at their best - i think hairston is best used in short spurts to push tempo - i know grant isn't a TRUE pg, but he played pretty effectively as a pg last year, and lee can guard any point in the conference allowing grant to guard the 2 (which he can do VERY ably) - lots to tinker with and some tough ooc games remain (@ vwc and home vs. a piedmont team that will be better prepared for the monarchs than anyone mc plays all year, then a trip to m'ville after the first 3 conference games)

and, for the record...getting lots of steals DOESN'T make you a great defender - i hope that sam porter isn't reading this, because he is a very big strong man , BUT sam wasn't a particularly good post defender, but he got lots of steals because he had quick, strong hands...if his man kept the ball, he generally scored - glancing at the stats, sam was #2 in the conference in steals in conference only games last year, though - there are 2 stats that i think basketball should add, one which would help this argument tremendously...there should be an individual +/- stat...in other words, how many points did the man you were guarding score, and how many did you score - it would tell LOTS about play on both ends in many cases - 2nd stat deals with assists...if you dish the ball in an assist scenario and the finisher gets fouled, you should get .5 assist for each ft on a 2 point shot and .33 for each ft on a 3 pt shot - just my $.02

[captj]

It's so easy to just say "it's the system".  But this is a conference with lots of teams and unfortunately there aren't enough first team spots for everyone.  Face it Monarchs, your guys just don't have the stats to warrant inclusion on the first team, and when the official team is announced next year you'll see that I'm right.  I'd still like to hear from others on the board.

Just for perspective, was McNair better than Antoine Sinclair?

"and, for the record...getting lots of steals DOESN'T make you a great defender".  Who said that, narch?  I didn't.  I said "players who accumulate lots of steals are NOT bad defenders".  I don't think the distinction is that difficult to understand.

I do like your ideas about additional stats, but I'm not sure that a man-to-man +/- is the one.  Think of the great Russell/Chamberlain matchups in the sixties.  Russell would definitely lose that statistical contest, but look at the championships the Celtics won.  I'd rather see a +/- stat that keeps track of what the TEAM does, much like they use in ice hockey.

[narch]

It's so easy to just say "it's the system".  But this is a conference with lots of teams and unfortunately there aren't enough first team spots for everyone.  Face it Monarchs, your guys just don't have the stats to warrant inclusion on the first team, and when the official team is announced next year you'll see that I'm right.  I'd still like to hear from others on the board.

i've said there would be no monarchs on the first team from the get-go...mostly because no monarch has or will ever accumulate big numbers...but mcnair deserves consideration - are they really naming an all-time team....i thought this was just a discussion among friends

Just for perspective, was McNair better than Antoine Sinclair?

on the perimeter......yes

"and, for the record...getting lots of steals DOESN'T make you a great defender". Who said that, narch? I didn't. I said "players who accumulate lots of steals are NOT bad defenders". I don't think the distinction is that difficult to understand.

it's semantics, but there ARE players who accumulate lots of steals and ARE bad defenders - good team defense is about positioning, denying and forcing the other team out of what they want to do...steals CAN be a by-product of good defense, but i prefer to look at shooting % and turnovers forced when evaluating a defensive performance

[captj]

are they really naming an all-time team....i thought this was just a discussion among friends

I thought so... didn't they do so on the women's side?  But if not, it sure is fun anyway.