MBB: USA South Conference

[mattgrubb]

Bowyer rolled his ankle in like the last 5 seconds. No ankle braces on. That's why I always say don't trust short people. They took one on the chin without him. Missed a lot of free throws and weren't as smooth in their offense as one would expect without him. He will be back. Covenant is the surprise or that NCW lost 2 games at home this weekend.

Yea and the Lagrange weekend and I'm so happy to say this:  play someone real and talk about wins. I know they played #1 ranked Whitworth last year in the NCAA tourney last year so they know what the real goal is and what real teams look like. Wallace has his priorities in line. Although it is nice to have a dominant weekend, this isn't the weekend that will define their season. I'm pretty sure CIU didn't HOLD Wagner scoreless, he just didn't get a turn as everyone else was unloading on CUI.

The Fake Scots will get theirs soon enough.

[Ben Stein Fan]

Dave,

I am not saying Rhodes is a top 25 team.  My argument is that when given the chance teams from SAA, ODAC, and USA South are beating traditionally national powerhouse teams this season.  I submit that there are some quality teams in the USA South and ODAC that are getting overlooked because they are not traditional powerhouse programs.  If you look at the body of work of Maryville you would have to say that they have earned consideration for a national ranking.  When the #3 team in the nation can lose handily to an average to good SAA team then maybe the voters are not giving the due consideration to Southern teams.  I think the whole body of work for teams in the USA South and ODAC are getting.

For instance, Virginia Wesleyan and Emory had an off year for them in their pre-conference schedule.  The presumption is they aren't that good this year.  However, the opposite could also be true that teams in the South are playing better basketball in the past and it is a lot hard to dominate.

I get what you are saying... but if the voters know Emory and VWC are done this season, a victory over them carries less weight. For example, an early season win over VWC has far more weight at the time than that same victory looks right now. So teams might have been on the verge of getting votes then, but now less likely.

But the reason challenge this year has to do with the fact there are a TON of good teams and not a lot of great teams. Parity in Division III men's basketball is incredible this season. The number of two and three loss teams coupled with how many predominantly strong programs who don't look strong has created a quagmire when trying to figure out who the best 25 teams in the country are week to week. I know I have 50 squads, but I probably have closer to 70 teams on my list that an argument could be made they deserve a Top 25 vote. Each week I am shuffling out four or more teams on my ballot - that is unheard of! As a result, it is hard to really put a finger on who are the best and who are close, but not quite there. There are a lot of teams that all look the same when breaking it down.

Another bit of food for thought... the Top 25 is a pretty difficult thing to get into, to be blunt. Because of the size of the division... only 6.0% of schools can say they are in the Top 25. In Division I, it's 7.1%. In Division II, it's 7.8%. It's really, really hard to be ranked in the Top 25 especially in such a diverse division.

Dave,

The current Top 25 poll is an example of what I mean there is a regional bias in the D3 polling.  From the most recent article on D3hoops.com on Washington U.

"Six men's teams and six women's teams from the Central Region were among the Top 25 this week."

If there are eight regions and 25 teams in the poll, the fact that one region has six teams suggests to me that there is a regional bias in the voting.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Dave,

I am not saying Rhodes is a top 25 team.  My argument is that when given the chance teams from SAA, ODAC, and USA South are beating traditionally national powerhouse teams this season.  I submit that there are some quality teams in the USA South and ODAC that are getting overlooked because they are not traditional powerhouse programs.  If you look at the body of work of Maryville you would have to say that they have earned consideration for a national ranking.  When the #3 team in the nation can lose handily to an average to good SAA team then maybe the voters are not giving the due consideration to Southern teams.  I think the whole body of work for teams in the USA South and ODAC are getting.

For instance, Virginia Wesleyan and Emory had an off year for them in their pre-conference schedule.  The presumption is they aren't that good this year.  However, the opposite could also be true that teams in the South are playing better basketball in the past and it is a lot hard to dominate.

I get what you are saying... but if the voters know Emory and VWC are done this season, a victory over them carries less weight. For example, an early season win over VWC has far more weight at the time than that same victory looks right now. So teams might have been on the verge of getting votes then, but now less likely.

But the reason challenge this year has to do with the fact there are a TON of good teams and not a lot of great teams. Parity in Division III men's basketball is incredible this season. The number of two and three loss teams coupled with how many predominantly strong programs who don't look strong has created a quagmire when trying to figure out who the best 25 teams in the country are week to week. I know I have 50 squads, but I probably have closer to 70 teams on my list that an argument could be made they deserve a Top 25 vote. Each week I am shuffling out four or more teams on my ballot - that is unheard of! As a result, it is hard to really put a finger on who are the best and who are close, but not quite there. There are a lot of teams that all look the same when breaking it down.

Another bit of food for thought... the Top 25 is a pretty difficult thing to get into, to be blunt. Because of the size of the division... only 6.0% of schools can say they are in the Top 25. In Division I, it's 7.1%. In Division II, it's 7.8%. It's really, really hard to be ranked in the Top 25 especially in such a diverse division.

Dave,

The current Top 25 poll is an example of what I mean there is a regional bias in the D3 polling.  From the most recent article on D3hoops.com on Washington U.

"Six men's teams and six women's teams from the Central Region were among the Top 25 this week."

If there are eight regions and 25 teams in the poll, the fact that one region has six teams suggests to me that there is a regional bias in the voting.

Or maybe it is that the Central has both the WIAC and CCIW - perennially two of the top 3 or 4 conferences in D3.  The WIAC alone has won four of the last six national titles in men's bball.

[Ben Stein Fan]

It is a continuous loop; the "strongest" conferences get so many votes then they get the best seeds, which in turn keeps the same teams at the top. Therefore, six teams from one region are in the Top 25.  Therefore, they don't have to travel far to play tournament games until the final four.  Just seems that because D3 travel limitations you don't get that many out of region games to see which teams are the strongest team.   D3 polls are perfectly set up for this continual loop that keeps the same teams at the top of the polling. 

[Ralph Turner]

Dave,

I am not saying Rhodes is a top 25 team.  My argument is that when given the chance teams from SAA, ODAC, and USA South are beating traditionally national powerhouse teams this season.  I submit that there are some quality teams in the USA South and ODAC that are getting overlooked because they are not traditional powerhouse programs.  If you look at the body of work of Maryville you would have to say that they have earned consideration for a national ranking.  When the #3 team in the nation can lose handily to an average to good SAA team then maybe the voters are not giving the due consideration to Southern teams.  I think the whole body of work for teams in the USA South and ODAC are getting.

For instance, Virginia Wesleyan and Emory had an off year for them in their pre-conference schedule.  The presumption is they aren't that good this year.  However, the opposite could also be true that teams in the South are playing better basketball in the past and it is a lot hard to dominate.

I get what you are saying... but if the voters know Emory and VWC are done this season, a victory over them carries less weight. For example, an early season win over VWC has far more weight at the time than that same victory looks right now. So teams might have been on the verge of getting votes then, but now less likely.

But the reason challenge this year has to do with the fact there are a TON of good teams and not a lot of great teams. Parity in Division III men's basketball is incredible this season. The number of two and three loss teams coupled with how many predominantly strong programs who don't look strong has created a quagmire when trying to figure out who the best 25 teams in the country are week to week. I know I have 50 squads, but I probably have closer to 70 teams on my list that an argument could be made they deserve a Top 25 vote. Each week I am shuffling out four or more teams on my ballot - that is unheard of! As a result, it is hard to really put a finger on who are the best and who are close, but not quite there. There are a lot of teams that all look the same when breaking it down.

Another bit of food for thought... the Top 25 is a pretty difficult thing to get into, to be blunt. Because of the size of the division... only 6.0% of schools can say they are in the Top 25. In Division I, it's 7.1%. In Division II, it's 7.8%. It's really, really hard to be ranked in the Top 25 especially in such a diverse division.

Dave,

The current Top 25 poll is an example of what I mean there is a regional bias in the D3 polling.  From the most recent article on D3hoops.com on Washington U.

"Six men's teams and six women's teams from the Central Region were among the Top 25 this week."

If there are eight regions and 25 teams in the poll, the fact that one region has six teams suggests to me that there is a regional bias in the voting.

Or maybe it is that the Central has both the WIAC and CCIW - perennially two of the top 3 or 4 conferences in D3.  The WIAC alone has won four of the last six national titles in men's bball.

IMHO, the Central and the Midwest Regions are the toughest in D3, kinda like the SEC West in football.

Are the Power Conferences still the WIAC, the CCIW, the NESCAC, the UAA  (and possibly the ODAC in most years)?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Dave,

I am not saying Rhodes is a top 25 team.  My argument is that when given the chance teams from SAA, ODAC, and USA South are beating traditionally national powerhouse teams this season.  I submit that there are some quality teams in the USA South and ODAC that are getting overlooked because they are not traditional powerhouse programs.  If you look at the body of work of Maryville you would have to say that they have earned consideration for a national ranking.  When the #3 team in the nation can lose handily to an average to good SAA team then maybe the voters are not giving the due consideration to Southern teams.  I think the whole body of work for teams in the USA South and ODAC are getting.

For instance, Virginia Wesleyan and Emory had an off year for them in their pre-conference schedule.  The presumption is they aren't that good this year.  However, the opposite could also be true that teams in the South are playing better basketball in the past and it is a lot hard to dominate.

I get what you are saying... but if the voters know Emory and VWC are done this season, a victory over them carries less weight. For example, an early season win over VWC has far more weight at the time than that same victory looks right now. So teams might have been on the verge of getting votes then, but now less likely.

But the reason challenge this year has to do with the fact there are a TON of good teams and not a lot of great teams. Parity in Division III men's basketball is incredible this season. The number of two and three loss teams coupled with how many predominantly strong programs who don't look strong has created a quagmire when trying to figure out who the best 25 teams in the country are week to week. I know I have 50 squads, but I probably have closer to 70 teams on my list that an argument could be made they deserve a Top 25 vote. Each week I am shuffling out four or more teams on my ballot - that is unheard of! As a result, it is hard to really put a finger on who are the best and who are close, but not quite there. There are a lot of teams that all look the same when breaking it down.

Another bit of food for thought... the Top 25 is a pretty difficult thing to get into, to be blunt. Because of the size of the division... only 6.0% of schools can say they are in the Top 25. In Division I, it's 7.1%. In Division II, it's 7.8%. It's really, really hard to be ranked in the Top 25 especially in such a diverse division.

Dave,

The current Top 25 poll is an example of what I mean there is a regional bias in the D3 polling.  From the most recent article on D3hoops.com on Washington U.

"Six men's teams and six women's teams from the Central Region were among the Top 25 this week."

If there are eight regions and 25 teams in the poll, the fact that one region has six teams suggests to me that there is a regional bias in the voting.

Or maybe it is that the Central has both the WIAC and CCIW - perennially two of the top 3 or 4 conferences in D3.  The WIAC alone has won four of the last six national titles in men's bball.

IMHO, the Central and the Midwest Regions are the toughest in D3, kinda like the SEC West in football.

Are the Power Conferences still the WIAC, the CCIW, the NESCAC, the UAA  (and possibly the ODAC in most years)?

This year the NESCAC seems down, ODAC seems down, UAA still to be determined.  But the OAC seems suddenly to be reckoned with.

[Mr. Ypsi]

It is a continuous loop; the "strongest" conferences get so many votes then they get the best seeds, which in turn keeps the same teams at the top. Therefore, six teams from one region are in the Top 25.  Therefore, they don't have to travel far to play tournament games until the final four.  Just seems that because D3 travel limitations you don't get that many out of region games to see which teams are the strongest team.   D3 polls are perfectly set up for this continual loop that keeps the same teams at the top of the polling.

You need to get up to speed on how D3 works.  The D3hoops.com poll has NOTHING to do with NCAA tournament selection or seeding.  Zip, zero, nada.

Do your homework, then rejoin the conversation.  Don't continue to embarrass yourself.

[Swish3]

You out there, narch?

[Ben Stein Fan]

It is a continuous loop; the "strongest" conferences get so many votes then they get the best seeds, which in turn keeps the same teams at the top. Therefore, six teams from one region are in the Top 25.  Therefore, they don't have to travel far to play tournament games until the final four.  Just seems that because D3 travel limitations you don't get that many out of region games to see which teams are the strongest team.   D3 polls are perfectly set up for this continual loop that keeps the same teams at the top of the polling.

You need to get up to speed on how D3 works.  The D3hoops.com poll has NOTHING to do with NCAA tournament selection or seeding.  Zip, zero, nada.

Do your homework, then rejoin the conversation.  Don't continue to embarrass yourself.

I apologize for misstating the connection between D3Hoops.com poll and the NCAA.  That wasn't what I meant to imply but can clearly see from rereading my statement how it came across that way.  However, I do believe that reputation plays a part on how the NCAA selects seeding.  It has to because so few teams can travel the long distances to play teams out of their region.  How many Central Region teams came to the South region to play games out of conference this year or vice versa?  So, how does the NCAA know how different regions stack up against other teams?  Based on statistics alone?  I seriously doubt that. 

[iwumichigander]

It is a continuous loop; the "strongest" conferences get so many votes then they get the best seeds, which in turn keeps the same teams at the top. Therefore, six teams from one region are in the Top 25.  Therefore, they don't have to travel far to play tournament games until the final four.  Just seems that because D3 travel limitations you don't get that many out of region games to see which teams are the strongest team.   D3 polls are perfectly set up for this continual loop that keeps the same teams at the top of the polling.

You need to get up to speed on how D3 works.  The D3hoops.com poll has NOTHING to do with NCAA tournament selection or seeding.  Zip, zero, nada.

Do your homework, then rejoin the conversation.  Don't continue to embarrass yourself.

I apologize for misstating the connection between D3Hoops.com poll and the NCAA.  That wasn't what I meant to imply but can clearly see from rereading my statement how it came across that way.  However, I do believe that reputation plays a part on how the NCAA selects seeding.  It has to because so few teams can travel the long distances to play teams out of their region.  How many Central Region teams came to the South region to play games out of conference this year or vice versa?  So, how does the NCAA know how different regions stack up against other teams?  Based on statistics alone?  I seriously doubt that.

More mixing of apples and oranges---1)Reputation plays no part in D3 that is more a D1 thing 2)As you will discover this season, in D3 the bracketing is all about cost, cost and more cost. How different teams or regions stack up against each other does not really come into play other than teams within conferences not facing each other in first rounds. 3) Some seasons it seems the committee uses the old magic 8 ball to select portions of the bracket
Suggest you go to D3hoops.com ---go to News-Men's News- Regional Rankings look through that and be sure to look at the link in that page  "Check out our NCAA Tournament FAQ" which will help explain

[Ralph Turner]

Ben, please do a search of the boards for the term "Bracket of Death".

Several years, the bracketing has had Top 25 teams filling out essentially one entire quarter of the bracket.

The Midwest and Central Regions are loaded with talented teams.

My ASC bias envies the teams coming out of the East, Atlantic Mid-Atlantic and the "non-NESCAC" bracket of Northeast Regional.

IMHO, the ASC does best when we don't go into the Great Lakes Region Central or Midwest Region until very late. (UT-Dallas might match up best against those regions.)

Look where the champions come from. 
http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/index

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Wow - stepped away for a short time and the stalwarts of the boards handle this all for me... thanks guys!

You might not like that your team isn't ranked, but the reality is - especially this year - it is really, really hard to get ranked and stay ranked. Do me a favor and tell me which teams you think should be ranked and I will try and take some time during the pending blizzard in my area and as long as the power remains to try and give you my reasons why they should or shouldn't be ranked. I promise you this: it won't make you happy because I will be blunt from my point of view, but at least you will hear my opinions.

[scottiedoug]

The Scots vs. Scots game at Maryville was not a pretty sight for the home team.  Coach Lambert suggested in the paper that his team got outworked.  Pretty much what I saw.  Covenant got way too many layups and offensive rebounds.  What say you, Mr. Grubby?

[mattgrubb]

there really isn't a team in the USA South that deserves to be ranked.   UGH.  My scots lost to the Fake Scots at home.  Ugh.  I was lied to about snow and now my kids are pissed.  Ugh.  HasselShoff is only scoring in the first half.  Ugh.  At least Randall has tools to work with so he will right the ship.  The scots jump out on people and then get nervous and play not to lose and thats not how these clowns want to play.  These clowns want to have fun on every play.  Thats tough to do when you get up big early.  They will be fine.  We still love watching these clowns as they are very entertaining.  They are going to be really good in the next couple of years and hopefully they will continue to have as much fun. 

Lagrange is winning.  After getting blown out in Murvul.  Ugh.  Maybe that was their mistake game.  good college teams have a mistake game about every 10 games.  Usually college kids don't have the ability to focus long term so they will make mistakes on their own if you just let them.  I think thats what happened to LC in Murvul.  Anyway I need the maker of men and disciple of defense and his incredibly attractive associate head coach to make a run in the tourney this year.  They know what it takes.  They saw Whitworth last year.  Hopefully they worked all summer getting ready for this time of year.  They have a long long week ahead of them.  I don't think they have the ability to focus and perform for 3 straight long distance road games but if they do it will say a lot for who is ready to go and who is ready to fold in this conference.

So far I still think Shoffner is the best player in the conference.  Wagner is a close second.  The King kid from William Peace was nice that night.  I didn't think any individual player from Covenant was that impressive but their team as a whole was nice.  NCW is very athletic and will be a nightmare match up in the conference tournament aka The USACAC/NM MBT.  (New abbreviation for the USA South Athletic Conference/Nick Mitchell Men's Basketball Tournament). 

I wanna see a rematch of last year's conference championship game.

[scottiedoug]

It is not clear why Methodist has not had a better season.  They have some good players and were too much for Maryville after the Scots forgot how to defend.  Or rebound.  They forgot the defense part in the second half against Covenant the game before.  Maybe young'uns do not really understand that is a necessary part of winning basketball games.  I hope they come to understand this soon.  What say you, Mr. Grubby?   

Narch:  Are you around?