MBB: USA South Conference

[Pat Coleman]

From that Star story:

Lambert said his school had "the stepchild complex," because all of the other ODAC schools were in Virginia.

"But I don't think (that will happen in the USA South)," Lambert said. "I see it as more of a south region conference."

Meanwhile, last year the conference coaches voted Maryville would finish last. They finished sixth. This year they picked them sixth and I would be willing to bet they will outperform that selection as well.

Stepchild indeed.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

Maybe the coaches for basketball have a better idea of how to pick the preseason poll..and even I think I do a better job on the girls side. (But again basketball is my main focus..since I stopped playing football)  I haven't found a poll the coaches have done in the past for football that came out on point.

Anyway hasanova-

I agree again I was a good student in high school grades to show SAT above avg for USAS and right around the avg for the ODAC...but probably below the avg for ODAC schools.  I just don't think using gpa or SAT scores should be used to judge the conferences.  I would be willing to bet the avg SAT scores in NC are lower then the SAT scores in VA.  I know most students stay in state when going to college.  The scores should reflect that. Maybe the success is do in part of the huge alumni base from the ODAC...they can donate a little bit more money.  On the womens side basketball.  I was at the RMC-GC NCAA game.  There were more alumni at that game then students.  Which could contibute to all the other factors that including the state of facilities.

Being from MD..not the biggest football state by any means...seing 3A grimsley high school concrete stadium was a real ugrade for what I am used to seeing.  I can't even imagine greensboro doing that with a new field.

[hasanova]

From that Star story:

Lambert said his school had "the stepchild complex," because all of the other ODAC schools were in Virginia.

"But I don't think (that will happen in the USA South)," Lambert said. "I see it as more of a south region conference."

Meanwhile, last year the conference coaches voted Maryville would finish last. They finished sixth. This year they picked them sixth and I would be willing to bet they will outperform that selection as well.

Stepchild indeed.

This complex exists.  Talk to Guilford, currently the only full membership school outside Virginia (Washington, DC's CUA is football only).  I realize another name for the conference might be unwieldy, but the even the name "Old Dominion" Athletic Conference contributes.

[wilburt]

My, my: 

The St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference has 4 schools from Illinois as members. 

The Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference has such noted Southern schools as Colorado College and DePauw College as members.

I wonder if they feel like step-children too? 

[hasanova]

Anyway hasanova-

I agree again I was a good student in high school grades to show SAT above avg for USAS and right around the avg for the ODAC...but probably below the avg for ODAC schools.  I just don't think using gpa or SAT scores should be used to judge the conferences.  I would be willing to bet the avg SAT scores in NC are lower then the SAT scores in VA.  I know most students stay in state when going to college.  The scores should reflect that. Maybe the success is do in part of the huge alumni base from the ODAC...they can donate a little bit more money.  On the womens side basketball.  I was at the RMC-GC NCAA game.  There were more alumni at that game then students.  Which could contibute to all the other factors that including the state of facilities.

Being from MD..not the biggest football state by any means...seing 3A grimsley high school concrete stadium was a real ugrade for what I am used to seeing.  I can't even imagine greensboro doing that with a new field.

PrideSportBBallGuy - I agree.  The SAT, ACT, GPAs, class rank, endowments, enrolments, percentage of students attending graduate school and other measurable parameters are "ways" to compare the conferences, but not the only important criteria.  There are also many intangible (and I might add, subjective) factors such as a college's mission statement, history, campus aesthetics and so forth that enter into the equation.  It is, after all, just a topic for friendly debate.  A debate, I also might add, that doesn't have to have a winner or a loser to be an interesting discussion.

Not sure about your statement "most students stay in state when going to college."  Probably true when you talk about state-supported schools or private schools with a more parochial mission, but Guilford for example, lists 69% of its 1289 current traditional age students as out-of-state (and 27 of those are international students).  I'm sure the numbers are comparable at most other ODAC schools.  Also with endowments, the earning power of the alumni certainly contributes.  I don't think it's any mystery that the Ivy League and NESCAC are in the hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars.  I would imagine this is reflected to a certain degree throughout all schools in America.

Jameson Stadium is big by HS (and DIII) standards. Unless, of course, you're from Friday Night Lights country in Odessa, TX.  There is the "Pride" factor of having a home you can call your own, however.   Peace

[hasanova]

My, my: 

The St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference has 4 schools from Illinois as members. 

The Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference has such noted Southern schools as Colorado College and DePauw College as members.

I wonder if they feel like step-children too? 

Yeah, point taken, but we're talking about a conference named after one state (Old Dominion is Virginia) that has only one member from outside the state.  You cite two good examples, but the St. Louis metro area certainly extends into Illinois and, while DePauw and Colorado College are certainly not in the South, the name Southern, to me, signifies a much broader geographic scope than say, the Alabama Athletic Conference, to create a fictional affiliation.   

[narch]

From that Star story:

Lambert said his school had "the stepchild complex," because all of the other ODAC schools were in Virginia.

"But I don't think (that will happen in the USA South)," Lambert said. "I see it as more of a south region conference."

Meanwhile, last year the conference coaches voted Maryville would finish last. They finished sixth. This year they picked them sixth and I would be willing to bet they will outperform that selection as well.

Stepchild indeed.

pat - give us a preview of the kickoff preview...where do you think m'ville will finish in the usasac? given that they beat 2 teams with a combined one usasac victory (gc and su) last year, and those same 2 teams are picked below them, who would you pick them to upset?

mc was 6 points from the ncaa tournament (and having the services of a starting tb might have helped the cause), yet is picked to finish 4th? i doubt you'll hear any monarch fan say that it's because the monarchs are the "usasac stepchild"...it's tough to look at those 3 teams ahead of the monarchs and say conclusively that mc will beat them (even though they were 2-1 against them last year), just the same as it's difficult to say the m'ville will beat any of the teams ahead of them when there is so little historical data

i know it's a novel thought, but maybe the coaches just think that the 5 teams picked to finish ahead of m'ville are better?

[narch]

hasanova - i hope you didn't take offense to my diatribe re: odac reputations - i'm not implying that any odac school is even bending the rules (although i'm sure they do ) - i just wonder how deserved a school's reputation is when they are giving a student with a 2.5 or a 2.7 gpa an academic scholarship - i think you can tell something about a school by how they dole out academic dollars...in my mind, a school that values a 2.7 gpa enough to hand him $15K of academic money either has way too much money to give away (not likely) or isn't attracting the quality of students that their reputation suggests they do (or more accurately, probably did, at one point)

[Ralph Turner]

...

Jameson Stadium is big by HS (and DIII) standards. Unless, of course, you're from Friday Night Lights country in Odessa, TX.  There is the "Pride" factor of having a home you can call your own, however.   Peace

quote]

hasanaova, Ratliff Stadium in Odessa is about the normal for the larger school districts (4A and 5A-- 4-yr enrollments over 900 students and 1800 students respectively)  in Texas.  Shotwell Stadium in Abilene, where McMurry played last year and the Abilene Independent School District school Abilene HS and Cooper HS play, holds 15,000.  My kids' high school stadium hosted the first 24 Dallas Cup competitions in International Youth Soccer.

I will agree.  Having a nice facility on campus is much prefereable to almost anything away from campus.

[hasanova]

hasanova - i hope you didn't take offense to my diatribe re: odac reputations - i'm not implying that any odac school is even bending the rules (although i'm sure they do ) - i just wonder how deserved a school's reputation is when they are giving a student with a 2.5 or a 2.7 gpa an academic scholarship - i think you can tell something about a school by how they dole out academic dollars...in my mind, a school that values a 2.7 gpa enough to hand him $15K of academic money either has way too much money to give away (not likely) or isn't attracting the quality of students that their reputation suggests they do (or more accurately, probably did, at one point)

Narch - No offense taken.  We all know some schools with otherwise lofty reputations that take athletes they shouldn't.  Does anyone here think Allen Iverson could be admitted to Georgetown without a good jumper (and that's debatable from my point of view!)?  If he's "The Answer," then we've run out of options!  lol  Sadly, even in DIII at times, amateur athletics is an oxymoron.  There is a balance you have to strike - without sports you don't get the media exposure you crave and you don't have another carrot to offer in order to attract potential students (as both participants, spectators and later alumni) - but sometimes you have to turn a blind eye to do it.   I think we all also know that winning sports teams can and do affect contributions to the college coffers.  It's a vicious cycle.

I'm a big guy.  To me, this discussion is just an academic exercise, not a polemic war.    People who have diatribes are just passionate debaters, not unthinking antagonists.  (that's a compliment, by the way lol)  I think I went to a very good school, but I certainly don't think I went to the very best school.  You're a fair man, I think you'll say the same about your alma mater and its conference.

Peace  

[Ralph Turner]

hasanova - i hope you didn't take offense to my diatribe re: odac reputations - i'm not implying that any odac school is even bending the rules (although i'm sure they do ) - i just wonder how deserved a school's reputation is when they are giving a student with a 2.5 or a 2.7 gpa an academic scholarship - i think you can tell something about a school by how they dole out academic dollars...in my mind, a school that values a 2.7 gpa enough to hand him $15K of academic money either has way too much money to give away (not likely) or isn't attracting the quality of students that their reputation suggests they do (or more accurately, probably did, at one point)

Narch I would look at the "scholarships" to those calibre students (2.5-2.7 GPA) as another name for "discounting".  Every college discounts their tuition for some reason, academic, athletic in other classifications, general merit, legacy, "leadership". 

I hope that the hard working student who earns every point fo that 2.7 GPA is inspired that schoalrship and does something with it.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

I don't know where this will fit, narch maybe ODAC looks for parents that are rich.  I know somebody that wasn't accepted into Duke (not the best example I know) but was very qualifed, somebody who was well below the standards but whose parents were rich got them into the school.  They must have rich alumni at ODAC schools haha

I haven't found anything to disprove or prove my point about students staying in state.  I would have to agree with the state school, parochial school point you made though.  I did notice that RMC had on 32% out of state students.  Lets not forget community colleges as well contribute to the in state numbers.

I know on the girls side of basketball ODAC constanly beats up the USAS in basketball.  It might be the same for guys.  Which state has more talent.  There is a big talent battle in NC for players. Maybe ODAC has better luck.  I still think there should be ODAC-USAS challenge like the ACC-Big Ten

[hasanova]

...

Jameson Stadium is big by HS (and DIII) standards. Unless, of course, you're from Friday Night Lights country in Odessa, TX.  There is the "Pride" factor of having a home you can call your own, however.   Peace

hasanaova, Ratliff Stadium in Odessa is about the normal for the larger school districts (4A and 5A-- 4-yr enrollments over 900 students and 1800 students respectively)  in Texas.  Shotwell Stadium in Abilene, where McMurry played last year and the Abilene Independent School District school Abilene HS and Cooper HS play, holds 15,000.  My kids' high school stadium hosted the first 24 Dallas Cup competitions in International Youth Soccer.

I will agree.  Having a nice facility on campus is much prefereable to almost anything away from campus.

A friend of mine, who is a native Texan by the way, once told me there are two main sports in Texas:  football and spring football.  This was also coming from a man who allowed his son to be "redshirted" by repeating the 8th grade.  Yes, it's done!  With this in mind, I guess the parallel statement would have to be there are two types of preparatory school football:  High School football and Texas High School football! lol   In neighboring Oklahoma, I saw the football stadium for the Bombers of tiny Frederick.  Not only do they have enough seats for everyone in Tillman County, but everyone from the county they're playing plus the visiting press and out-of-town alumni!  You truly have to see it to believe it.

[Pat Coleman]

mc was 6 points from the ncaa tournament (and having the services of a starting tb might have helped the cause), yet is picked to finish 4th? i doubt you'll hear any monarch fan say that it's because the monarchs are the "usasac stepchild"...it's tough to look at those 3 teams ahead of the monarchs and say conclusively that mc will beat them (even though they were 2-1 against them last year), just the same as it's difficult to say the m'ville will beat any of the teams ahead of them when there is so little historical data

i know it's a novel thought, but maybe the coaches just think that the 5 teams picked to finish ahead of m'ville are better?

Wow, talk about jumping off the deep end. A little overreaction, no? Why would Methodist even THINK it was the USAC stepchild anyway? Give me a break. 

Although I am not doing the USAC preview personally for Kickoff, I think Maryville will beat Greensboro, Shenandoah and N.C. Wesleyan.

[hasanova]

I don't know where this will fit, narch maybe ODAC looks for parents that are rich.  ... They must have rich alumni at ODAC schools haha

I know on the girls side of basketball ODAC constanly beats up the USAS in basketball.  It might be the same for guys.  Which state has more talent.  There is a big talent battle in NC for players. Maybe ODAC has better luck.  I still think there should be ODAC-USAS challenge like the ACC-Big Ten

Hmm, often, in my experience, the better a school's academic reputation (and endowment, of course), the more easily it can take a "need blind" approach to admission.  If the colleges that accepted me had looked at my family's finances as a criterium for admission, I couldn't have gone anywhere!  lol

In my opinion, there are several obstacles to recruiting DIII athletes from within NC:  1) there are over fifty accredited 4-year colleges and universities in the state  2) sixteen of those 50+ schools offer the considerably lower in-state tuition of a state-supported school  3) these figures don't even take into account NC's 58 (I think) state-supported community colleges and technical schools, many of whom also offer intercollegiate sports.  4) relative to many other states, NC still has a median income in the lower tier - certainly not conducive to sending junior to a $30k school just so he can play DIII sports. 

A USASAC/ODAC challenge for basketball sounds like a good idea.  There are very few opportunities for out-of-conference play, however, so don't hold your breath.  There is a 25 game DIII limit to the regular season and the ODAC men already have 18 conference games and the ODAC women have 20.