MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[smedindy]

There are no personal shots taken - many of us disagree with what he is posting and the tone of his posts. He sounds like he has an axe to grind (and he may have).

If you look back he was picking on the coach for things that statistically and realistically weren't backed up in his rants, especially since they came in games that weren't truly winnable.

[DenisonFan]

WB:
Thanks so much.  It is nice to hear someone gets where I am coming from.

Smed thinks I have an ax to grind.  For the record I have NO ax.

For you to say I complain about games we have NO CHANCE of winning.   It seems to me that the Big Red beat Witt a year ago.  What has changed??  Other than the fact that 4 juniors have guit off that team.

If I have a complaint is that we should not be losing each and every game by 30 points.  They need to play better defense.  They have to take care of the ball.  The Red average like 20 turnovers a game.  That is NOT a good thing.   

I feel, and again, this is MY OPINION, that Ghiloni does a poor job of rotations in the game.
It is like he forgets who is on his bench.  Be it Izzo, Hern, Hodgkinson.  They sit for too long.

They are not a deep team. ( In my opinion)  When you play 11 guys you are saying the second five is as good as the first.  On this team they are not.  (In my opinion)

Again Smed........just my opinion.   You say what you want, I will still say what I want.



Thanks again WB!! 

[wally_wabash]

For you to say I complain about games we have NO CHANCE of winning.   It seems to me that the Big Red beat Witt a year ago.  What has changed??  Other than the fact that 4 juniors have guit off that team.

4 juniors quit?!?!?  You lost almost an entire court full of upperclassman and you want to just blow that off?  That's a HUGE loss and a HUGE change.  It turns a team with experience and adequate depth into a team that is young and shallow. 

You're still hanging your hat on that Witt win and using it as the reason why Denison should be winning all of their games.  Not with the casualties the roster has suffered.  Your expectations are too high and taking it out on the coach is simply wrong. 

If I have a complaint is that we should not be losing each and every game by 30 points. They need to play better defense. They have to take care of the ball. The Red average like 20 turnovers a game. That is NOT a good thing.

They're young....they're going to make mistakes.  They're going to get smashed by better teams.  They're going to struggle on defense, particularly early in the season.  That's what young teams do.  In '03-'04, Wabash entered the season with a whole boatload of fresh faces after graduating a sizeable senior class the year before.  Most of Wabash's key players were sophomores and freshmen during that season.  Wabash struggled their way to 12-15 that year.  Wabash didn't play good defense, turned the ball over a lot, got totally crushed in most of their losses...heck, that team even lost to Denison.  But they were young...most of those players getting their first varsity experience from that team are now seniors this season and Wabash is playing pretty good basketball.  Sometimes, it just takes some time.  Denison seems to be in the same boat....right now I would argue that getting the younglings game experience is more important than making sure Hodgkinson or Hern or Izzo get 35 minutes every game.  Next year, Denison will have Hodgkinson and Izzo as senior anchors with a nice cast of experienced young players.  If you play Hern and Hodgkinson and Izzo 35 minutes every game this year, Denison is going to be in the exact same boat next season.  Use a little forward thinking...there's a bigger picture here that you're completely missing. 

[ScotsFan]

4 juniors quit?!?!?  You lost almost an entire court full of upperclassman and you want to just blow that off?  That's a HUGE loss and a HUGE change.  It turns a team with experience and adequate depth into a team that is young and shallow. 

I don't think DF is blowing off the fact that 4 juniors have quit.  I think this has a lot to do with some of his questions about Ghiloni and his coaching staff.  Why are so many upperclassmen suddenly quitting when things seemed to be turning in the right direction?  DF had brought this up before Wally.  I think its funny that DF seems to be a pretty reliable source when it comes to Denison basketball, as he seems to follow them quite closely, and yet his biggest critics are Wabash fans who can't be nearly as close to what is going on around the Denison program as DF.  Why do you care if DF wishes to express his criticisms of Denison and the coaching staff there?  I didn't know you were only allowed to post positive sentiments in this forum on all things relating to DIII athletics?  Did I miss the memo that you can't be critical of a coach or a player every once in a while???

[DenisonFan]

Wally:
You make some very valid points. 

Yes, having 4 juniors guit was HUGE.  Not only from a talent standpoint but also leadership for the younger guys.  I have said what was said in the stands for the reasons they left.  I don't need to say it again.  Do I think it hurt the team.  Absolutely.

As a coach on any level in any sport is it not your first and formost responsibility to the team to give them the BEST chance of winning the game?  Isn't that what they are hired to do?  Win games??  Or is it gym class?  Play everyone and lose by 30.

Don't Hern, Izzo and Hodgkinson deserve to play the most?  They are the upperclassmen.  They have put in the time.  They have some talent.  Are they just suppose to sit back and let this coaching staff lose games so the freshmen can play.  What is that??

Dension does not have nearly the talent that Wooster, Witt, Earlham, Wabash or even OWU has.  But they don't need to be embarrassed each and every time they play.

Does Ghiloni want a program where you play two years and quit.  Because by the time you are a junior you won't be playing because he has to give the freshmen experience.  Regardless of the fact that you are going to get killed in the game. 

I am sorry, but it is MY OPINION that is not what the coach should do.

[smedindy]

ScotsFan -

I'm just looking at it all objectively. Is there any reason that YOU have an issue with a give and take about a program, except that it's from Wabash posters instead of an all-knowing Scots poster?

Fact is - many programs have a lot of players leave the program. Wabash has just one junior this year. It's not an unusual problem that one class washes out for one reason or another.

Fact is - Denison's PT and stats were quite similar to last year's squad, when there was no carping about PT for the big studs.

Fact is - the criticism started during a hellacious stretch for Denison when they basically should have just played the young guys to give them experience.

Fact is-  Denison is on track to repeat, basically, their same record last year.

Fact is - before Ghiloni showed up they were awful, and now they're respectable, at least.

I was looking at his posts from another angle, a detached observer, if you will. There have been people backing up Ghiloni as well.

[DenisonFan]

Smed:
If you feel that losing each game by 30 is repectable....so be it.  Let's see what Denison does in the next couple of weeks.  They certainly have some games they should win.  What are you going to say when they don't?

Yes, kids leave the programs.  DIII players play because they like to.  It is not like they are being paid to play. 

Last night Illinois beat Michigan State.   I am just curious how long Bruce Weber would have a job if he told Dee Brown he would have to sit out because we are going to give the freshmen some experience.  Especially before the conference games start.  Doesn't matter if we win or lose, it will be good to give the freshmen some much needed experience.  How long?  Not very I would think. 


Come on.  Give me something better than....Denison was going to lose anyway.  That certainly has to motivate the team when they are told:  "The team has no chance so we will play the freshmen."   That certainly would get me fired up to play.   

Question Smed?  Have you even seen Denison play.  If so, when?  I am just curious where you are coming from.

[wally_wabash]

What you hear in the stands and a buck will get you a cup of coffee.  

I think there are more important things for college coaches than winning basketball games.  College coaches, especially those coming into situations where there isn't a ton of winning history (cough, Denison, cough) have to build a program.  Build a program, and the wins will take care of themselves.  Sometimes program building isn't pretty to look at.  It's not always fun and it's anything but easy.  Ghiloni could play Hodgkinson and Hern and Izzo 35+ minutes every game...the scores would look a little better, Denison might even win an extra game or two, but at what cost?  The younger players don't get the court time to step in and be effective next season and Denison is in the same boat that they're in this season.  

You can't have four upperclassman unexpectedly walk and expect to win.  Would you rather see Denison go 12-13 this year (which is the area they're headed) and be prepared to have a 17 (or more)-win season next year...or would you rather see Denison win 14 or 15 games this year, finish in the middle of the pack, and do the same again next year...and the next...and the next...That's where this is headed.  Ghiloni is giving the younger guys time because he's not just in it for one year at a time, he's trying to build a program.  Isn't the cost of a lean year or two worth the payoff of having a winning program annually?  

The reality is that Denison isn't going to win this year with just Hodgkinson, Hern, and Izzo which is what you're advocating.  They won't win next year with just Hodgkinson and Izzo.  They need the other players.  Next year, Denison can win with Hodgkinson, Izzo, and a cast of experienced players and there's only one way to get that experience.

[DenisonFan]

Wally:
I agree.  There must be some reason sooooooo many guys guit.  What I heard...you're right I have only rumors and so be it.  The fact is that perhaps Ghiloni and his staff should have done a better job of keeping those guys on the team and then he wouldn't have to worry about playing so many younger guys.

Denison is a 500 ball club.  But if you are going to build a successful program you better do a better job of keeping the upperclassmen you have or you will be building forever!!

[smedindy]

From what I have seen, when the starters were pulled the games were getting out of hand. I do not think that any coaching staff says, "we're going to get killed" to the players, but come on, against Akron what did Denison expect? Why not allow the kids to play and work together as a unit when they're down 25 or 30 and there's no real pressure?

[smedindy]

I did some digging on Denison's web site, since we're talking about players that left.

Last year, they listed seven sophomores. On the current roster there are three juniors, though one (Champ Rawls) has not played varsity this year. (Last year, Rawls played 6 minutes of varsity).

The juniors that left:

Tony Julian - left at mid-season this year. Was averaging just 4.9 points per game and shooting under 50% from the line when he left.  Last year averaged 6.7 per game.

John Wagner - averaged 12 minutes and 3.9 ppg.

Pete Harris - averaged 5.5 points per game and dished out 47 assists off the bench.

Dan Kellogg - played just 13 minutes with basically no stats. Now listed as a student assistant.

Sure, it hurt their depth - but one could say that Gognat and Eberst are filling the slots OK. And giving PT to Ward, Krantz, McMahon and Shea can't hurt in the long run, even in the long run this season. I would bet those four freshmen will be better players in the second half.

Losing Julian hurt because it hurts to lose a player at midseason.

Wabash actually has two juniors, but Dustin Huff didn't play before this season. Ryan Stephens is the only survivor out of six in that class that played varsity over the past two seasons, including two part time starters at some point in their career (Shook and Koch). Wabash also has lost two would-be seniors that also started during their careers.

And I guarantee you that of the five of six would-be juniors that left - almost all have a different story.

It happens.

[DenisonFan]

Smed:
Down by 30 play the cheerleaders if you want.

I will give you Akron, Witt and Wooster.  But not the other blowouts.

I was there.....we are in the game and it seems like Ghiloni will substitute just to do it.
The other teams don't pull their starters, why does he?  They are tired, they are not in foul trouble.   

Last game.......Hodgkinson plays 19 minutes and is 11 of 12.   23 of the 58 points.  40% of the offense and he sits him???  So what if he has 2 fouls.  What are you saving him for?  Nobody else was doing anything.  So why not leave him in the game?  Instead he sits and the team goes down by 25 and the game is over.  So play the cheerleaders because we have NO chance anyway.   What is wrong with that picture?

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Again, what games have you seen?

Then we dig ourselves a hole we can't get out of.

My biggest complaint is his rotation.  He can have 5 guys on the floor that don't even look to score.   You can certainly find a way to keep 3 starters on floor at all times. 

Play freshmen because you were going to lose anyway??  What kind of statement is that?
I have to think that would get the team motivated.  We pulled you out because we have no chance so let's play the freshmen.   Why does that not seem like a real good idea.

Illlinois played Michigan State last night.  I wonder how long Bruce Weber would have a job if he told Dee Brown that in those first 14 games he was going to sit him down so his freshmen can get some experience.  I have to think he would be gone.

To build a successful you best find a way to keep your upperclassmen on the team or you will be rebuilding FOREVER!!

[wally_wabash]

Please for the love of all things holy don't tell me that you're trying to draw a comparison between Dee Brown and Dan Hodgkinson.  You're positively delusional if you think the two situations are even remotely related. 

What's better for the greater good of Denison basketball?  Hodgkinson getting 35 minutes and as many shots as he wants every game or developing the players that Hodgkinson is inevitably going to need support from to actually win games? 

[ScotsFan]

I did some digging on Denison's web site, since we're talking about players that left.

Last year, they listed seven sophomores. On the current roster there are three juniors, though one (Champ Rawls) has not played varsity this year. (Last year, Rawls played 6 minutes of varsity).

The juniors that left:

Tony Julian - left at mid-season this year. Was averaging just 4.9 points per game and shooting under 50% from the line when he left.  Last year averaged 6.7 per game.

John Wagner - averaged 12 minutes and 3.9 ppg.

Pete Harris - averaged 5.5 points per game and dished out 47 assists off the bench.

Dan Kellogg - played just 13 minutes with basically no stats. Now listed as a student assistant.

Sure, it hurt their depth - but one could say that Gognat and Eberst are filling the slots OK. And giving PT to Ward, Krantz, McMahon and Shea can't hurt in the long run, even in the long run this season. I would bet those four freshmen will be better players in the second half.

Losing Julian hurt because it hurts to lose a player at midseason.

Wabash actually has two juniors, but Dustin Huff didn't play before this season. Ryan Stephens is the only survivor out of six in that class that played varsity over the past two seasons, including two part time starters at some point in their career (Shook and Koch). Wabash also has lost two would-be seniors that also started during their careers.

We all know that losing players is inevitable, especially at this level.  I can't remember off hand, but I know for a fact that Kyle Witucky wasn't the only recruit brought in his freshman year.  Yet he is the only true senior on Wooster's roster.   They all quit or transferred but not all at the same time.  Not to mention the fact that Wooster has the luxury of finding one or two stud freshman every year that can step in and contribute immediately.  You act as though Denison losing these juniors could actually help them in the long run because its giving experience to the freshman that they might not have gotten otherwise?  Yes it's true to a point, but these juniors would be seniors and I would rather have a core of players playing with 3 years experience as opposed to one.  I, for one, would rather be building a program knowing that I have a solid core of upperclassmen returning rather than counting on unproven, inexperienced freshmen to suddenly step up.  I don't know the situation at Denison, but when there is a mass exodus, like what happened with over half of the juniors at Denison, questions and rumors are sure to follow.

ScotsFan -

I'm just looking at it all objectively. Is there any reason that YOU have an issue with a give and take about a program, except that it's from Wabash posters instead of an all-knowing Scots poster?

Not really, it's just ironic to me that it is Wabash posters though...

[Li'l Giant]

Not really, it's just ironic to me that it is Wabash posters though...

I'm missing the irony...