MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[smedindy]

It would be nice to have a core of players, sure, but it's not like what happened to Dension with its junior class hasn't happened to another team in the NCAC even in this time frame. Except for Julian, the players that left were role players, and they were replaced by sophomore role players with freshmen coming off the bench. It's making the best of the situation. Denison has a lot of players on its roster, which is good because it is building depth.

I looked at that OWU - Denison box score. Looks like OWU has a lot of depth and plays a lot of players. 12 players have played 9 games or more. No one plays more than 25 minutes a game. A good, well rounded team.

Here is a question, was Hodgkinson or Hern loafing on defense? The two main post players for OWU were 8-9 and 8-10 respectively. That's one thing I can see leading to a benching, even if you were lighting it up yourself. Some coaches just cannot abide defensive breakdowns.

[wally_wabash]

I'm sure Ghiloni would also rather prefer to have those four kids coming back next season and have a team loaded down with seniors.  Who doesn't want that?  But those kids walked, for whatever reasons, and now he has to play the hand he's been dealt.  Denison won't win by playing three man with Hern, Hodgkinson, and Izzo as DFan seems to think they should do.  Gotta have five guys on the court, and chances are you're going to need three or four or five more to play when those first five get tired, get some quick fouls, etc.  What's clear is that Denison isn't going to contend this year.  With all of the upperclassmen...maybe.  But that isn't our reality.  The reality is that Denison might be able to contend next year, but to do so the young kids have to learn how to play and we learn by doing.  But if the role players on this team don't get significant, meaningful time this year they'll be no better prepared to support the big guns than they are right now and Denison will have blown an opportunity before it even really got started.   

[DenisonFan]

Wally:
Did I say I'm comparing Dee Brown to anyone?  I asked how long Weber would keep his job?  Please go back and read what I said.

As far as getting guys playing time we have no choice.  Jullian was a HUGE loss.

As far as Eberst and Gognat stepping in.  Let's compare some numbers:

Wagner:  3 point percentage  .449
Harris:  3 point percentage .372.  Assist to Turnover ratio  2.1

Eberst:  3 point percentage .333
Gognat  3 point percentage .250   Assist to Turnover ratio a terrible .59

You really think they have replaced those guys???

Smed: I could have sworn that Koechler was on Chonacki??  Maybe I was at the wrong game.  And if someone is not playing hard you call a time out and ream them out.  You don't sit the kid when he is the only one doing anything on offense.

So if it were up to you, you pull them out, let the game get out of hand because the players you put in can not score and so you end up playing the cheerleaders.   

See, I have to say I do not agree with that.  Just my opinion.

[smedindy]

It was a question, you don't have to get snide about it. Who was on Jean then?

I also say the best way to get a player to play D is to sit his butt down on the bench and get someone in there who is trying to play D. It's worked many a time. The pine really communicates the coaches message loud and clear.

Replacement is the term to use - not a total fill in. Remember, it's been just a half season and Denison hasn't played the dregs yet, really. Playing Oberlin, Hiram, et. al. can really help the stats.

'Bash - Gheny in just a few hours, and for some dang reason I can't get the song by Pilot of out of my head with a twist in the lyrics, "Oh, ho, ho, it's Majzlik, you know..."

[wally_wabash]

The inference here is that Bruce Weber would be an idiot for sitting Dee Brown for no good reason the same way you feel Gholini is an idiot for sitting Hodgkinson or Hern or Izzo.  The difference here is that Dee Brown means WAY more to his team than Hodgkinson does to his.  Illinois wouldn't be undefeated without Brown, but I'm sure Denison could be 4-9 with or without one of those three guys.  The situations are completely different and trying to draw parallels between the two is asinine. 

More and more you sound like a guy who is less concerned with the long term well being of the program and more like a guy who is pissed because his friend or family member isn't getting the minutes/shots/points you think he deserves (a heinously erroneous belief....as soon as you start believing that one guy has statistical quotas to meet and then blame everybody else when said quotas aren't met, you're no longer a team player and you're hurting the squad).   This may or may not be the case....but I think it's time I fill you in on how you're coming off here to me. 

[DenisonFan]

Sit his butt down.  OK....for some reason I have never seen teams get points for defense.  So are you saying that those two guys scored all their points when Hern and Hodgkinson were in the game and the replacements shut them down.   NOOOOOOOO  that didn't happen.  So by sitting them down you just took your best chance of scoring off the court.

Interesting philosophy. 

I agree, these next games will tell alot of what this team is made of.

Rotation, rotation, rotation.   Not one freshman has been consistant from game to game.
For that reason, you leave the upperclassmen in to work with them.  Pulling everyone and leaving them to fend for themselves does not work.  You still have to put the ball in the basket to win.

[DenisonFan]

Wally:
Smed said that Denison should sit the upperclassmen in games they were obviously going to lose.  I totally disagree.  That is not why you play them.  That is why you have JV games. 
Your first unit has to play together as much as possible. 

Watching Wooster was like looking at a Rolex watch.  This does not come from playing with 11 other guys.  They have their starters and they have the roll players.  Those roll players work hard and replace those starters when they are juniors and seniors.  End of story.

Illlinois has some very talented freshmen.  I don't see Weber playing them just to give them "experience".  If you disagree with that, then there is no need for any further discussion.

As for my reasons for writing should be of no concern to you.  What I have in this forum is a place to vent my frustration.  I have not been 100% negative.  I will say I am about 70-30 but when you are 4-9 I don't have much on my highlight reel.

[Kramer]

I have sat back and read all these posts regarding Denison over the past several weeks.  I have refrained from posting because I knew that people away from Denison would not understand the downward direction this program is headed in, and would assume this year is similar to last.  While I agree with a lot of what DenisonFan is saying, I think there is a point that should be made.  Forget playing time, rotations, x's & o's; forget everything but this - the players in the program are miserable and are not enjoying their experience as players at Denison.  It's not only the upperclassmen, it's the majority of the players.  It started last year but they managed to win some games in spite of it.  At any lavel, to be successful you must enjoy what your doing and want to be there.  That is not happening at Denison.  Maybe you can't blame the coaching staff for all of it, but they don't seem to be doing anything to fix it.  Getting playing time for underclassmen can be a positive thing.  However, it won't help if the majority of them aren't there in the years to come. 

[wooly]

Kramer is finally someone who gets it.  That is exactly the problem at Denison.  It  does not hinge on playing time, just that the situation there is a bummer.  The program offers no excitment win or lose.  Way to go Kramer, you hit the nail on the head

[woolax]

Wooster plays College of NJ tonight in the opening round of the Washington & Jefforson Classic. Any thoughts on the College of NJ? How well do the teams match up?

[sac]

For someone like me who's been around this board a few years  ......

Reading all these posts about Denison is pretty amusing, considering all the talk about Wooster in here. 

[DenisonFan]

Kramer:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!

If I said that they would just say I have an ax to grind!!  That I am full of *#@*. 

Nice to see I am not alone.

[wally_wabash]

Again, you're comparing apples and oranges.  Denison isn't Wooster.  Wooster has been a dominant basketball program for a long, long time.  It isn't easy to get the point where Wooster is and trying to get a program to that point isn't a cakewalk.  

I don't think smeds nor myself are saying that Denison should be sitting the upperclassmen to get the younger kids experience.  What we are saying is that it doesn't make a lot of sense looking forward to keep them on the bench while the upperclassmen eat up all of the minutes in the game.  Denison is going to need those kids to perform, and with the exodus of the junior class this season, there really isn't time to baby them with JV games (and JV games are a different animal than varsity games anyway).  It might look ugly at times and Denison might end up on the wrong end of some serious beatdowns, but if Denison is going to be prepared to bounce back next year it needs to happen.  The freshmen have to play because after Hern,  Hodgkinson, and Izzo, Denison doesn't really have much else other than underclassmen.  They play by necessity.  Denison will be far better off next year because of this, even if it looks ugly at times presently.  

The point is that Coach Ghiloni doesn't have a choice.  Key players left and a bunch of kids who probably weren't expected to play significant roles this season are having to step in.  That's a tough spot for both coach and player.  Teams like this that are building or rebuilding need support, not backseat coaches.  

Now, if players continually leave the program in years to come, the team has no roster stability, and Denison finds itself in a perpetual state of rebuilding then spew forth the accusations of faulty management.  Right now, the gripe is that Denison is getting blasted by better teams which really isn't unexpected given Denison's youth. 

[DenisonFan]

Wally:
Very well said.
Let's hope these underclassmen can become more consistant in the remaining games.  If they don't, it is going to be a very long year.

Have a good weekend.

[David Collinge]

Enough of this non-Wooster talk. 

With 7:22 left, Wooster leads TCNJ by 6, 46-41.  Vandervaart has 16, Cooper has 14.