MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[David Collinge]

The Transy site said (and continues to say) 61-52.  Nevertheless I regret the error.

[David Collinge]

The Kenyon website reports  that Muskingum upended the Lords, 85-66. 

Not such a good day for the NCAC/OAC Challenge. 

[David Collinge]

Robert Morris (Chicago) 91
Ohio Wesleyan 72

http://www.hanover.edu/sports/hcmbb.htm

Robert Morris is ranked #4 in NAIA DI - they're a lot better than the other 3 teams in the Hanover tourney field.  Still not sure why Hanover chose to play them in Round 1 of their own tournament.

Why not?  In the eyes of the NCAA, losing to Rob't Morris is the same as not playing at all (or beating them, for that matter.)  Hanover got to play a high-quality opponent in a situation where a loss doesn't really hurt them.  It looks to me like none of the Collier teams were in-region for Hanover (MUC certainly isn't; OWU is close to the 200-mile limit, but I think it's a few miles on the wrong side), so with nothing to gain or lose, you might as well play the best team you can.

[smedindy]

Wow, is any team ever going to realize that the Grinnell system is junk? I guess it could be fun for the kids because they still get to score points but it just doesn't produce many wins. Congrats to the Scots on breaking the records and all!

Compare where  Grinnell and Redlands were BEFORE the system and after the system.

It certainly has greatly improved both programs. Other programs are in their infancy of running it.

[waterboy]

Juniata 88, Allegeny 75

Gators are now 2-2 on the season after losing both games in its Thanksgiving tournament.  They lost 89-66 to Baldwin-Wallace on Saturday.  Unfortunately, I was not able to make it to either day of the tournament to check out the teams.  Albion ended up winning the tourney over B-W 75-72, as they connected on a trey and a pair of free throws in the waning moments.  Crawford looked like he had a nice pair of games for Abion with 41 points and 30 boards and the assist on the go-ahead three in the championship, while Tori Davis was top dawg for BW with 41 points and 15 caroms on the weekend.  McCloskey had 26 against BW and 18 against Juniata to lead the Gators, who were also without Matt Majzlik for some unknown reason.  I'm guessing he's injured, as is usually the case. 

[woosterbooster]

Wow, is any team ever going to realize that the Grinnell system is junk? I guess it could be fun for the kids because they still get to score points but it just doesn't produce many wins. Congrats to the Scots on breaking the records and all!

[/shadow]

I'm not convinced that this sort of system is junk if you have the talent to utilize it.  Loyola Marymount, in the days of Bo Kimble, Hank Gathers, et al. made it work and thensome, because they had all the parts.

Per Stemer (who could also shoot the three) and Gathers were strong rebounders, and when Loyola was occasionally forced to play half court, Gathers was a force inside. Kimble was a great one on one player who could also shoot the ball.  Nobody has ever shot the three better than Jeff Frye. And their point guards had tremendous speed and ability, one of whom was Terrell Lowery, who went on to be a major league outfielder.

Not that I think it would produce the best results for them, but I actually believe that Wooster would do very well playing that sort of ball.  They have the speed, ballhandling, and outside shooting to make it work, along with just enough rebounding.  And, they're pretty deep, especially at guard, where it's probably more important.  I can easily see Andy Van Horn as a modern-day, DIII, Tom (the human bruise) Peabody.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm not convinced that this sort of system is junk if you have the talent to utilize it.  Loyola Marymount, in the days of Bo Kimble, Hank Gathers, et al. made it work and thensome, because they had all the parts.

Per Stemer (who could also shoot the three) and Gathers were strong rebounders, and when Loyola was occasionally forced to play half court, Gathers was a force inside. Kimble was a great one on one player who could also shoot the ball.  Nobody has ever shot the three better than Jeff Frye. And their point guards had tremendous speed and ability, one of whom was Terrell Lowery, who went on to be a major league outfielder.

Not that I think it would produce the best results for them, but I actually believe that Wooster would do very well playing that sort of ball.  They have the speed, ballhandling, and outside shooting to make it work, along with just enough rebounding.  And, they're pretty deep, especially at guard, where it's probably more important.  I can easily see Andy Van Horn as a modern-day, DIII, Tom (the human bruise) Peabody.

David Arseneault's Grinnell system is completely different from the Loyola Marymount system Paul Westhead ran in the days of Bo Kimble, Hank Gathers, Per Stumer, etc. It's not even a modification of Westhead's system. It's something completely different and unique. For more information, check out the "Who is running the Grinnell system?" room under the General Basketball heading.

And Moneyball5144, for decades Grinnell was a losing basketball program. Since Arseneault instituted the system a decade and a half ago, the Pioneers have won three conference titles -- something that they hadn't done prior to the birth of the Arseneault system since the 1961-62 season.

[David Collinge]

I wasn't going to say it...  8)

After listening to the (albeit frantic) game on the radio, I have to wonder where to pigeonhole Bob Johnson's Wasps.  I think I recall reading that they were emulating the "System," having contacted Coach Arsenault, etc., but it sounded like they sagged into a half-court defense more often than I would expect a System team to do. 

Whatever it is they do, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss it.  Sure, they had their heads handed to them today, but that's been the experience of System teams when they come up against top quality, athletic teams.  But less than a day before that, the Wasps hung up 150 of their own and wiped out Thomas More by 40 points.  They also beat Southern Vermont, and lost to perennial playoff team John Carroll by a scant 10 points.  E&H is not a program that's going to consistently challenge on the national scene, so if they can get 15 kids significant playing time and still beat the poor teams and be competitive against the good ones, I say more power to them.

[jeloesel]

David,
Bob Johnson defies easy pidgeonholing.  He's a veteran coach who's a great teacher.  When playing "conventional" offense, his teams were always sound in executing fundamentals.  The problem with coaching at Emory & Henry is getting enough outstanding talent to come to the middle of nowhere to constitute a team that can compete at the top levels of the ODAC. 

If he's anything, Bob Johnson is creative.  He's always coming up with defensive and offensive innovations, and his decision to jump to a completely different "system" is a typical Johnson move.   I'd expect Emory & Henry to do better under this "system" than they would have done continuing with a more conventional approach.  It will get Johnson's creative juices flowing and he's such a great teacher and motivator that he'll get his kids playing well.  He'll drive the other coaches in the ODAC to distraction because they will have to prepare differently for the Wasps than any other team in the conference.  It will take him a couple years to figure out the optimum way of running his version of the "system" at E&H.  Meanwhile, he'll be having a lot more fun than the rest of us.

[ODACfan1]

What makes Bob Johnson such a great coach is the fact that he is willing to take chances.  The team that he has this season has bought into playing the style that Coach Johnson has put in.  It is not grinnell and its not LMU either.  E&H has developed its own style of play and no matter what the outcome of the WOOSTER game it has already become a success. 
In saying that, it is still a work in progress, but their team really plays extremely hard and are going to give the ODAC fits.  Congrats again to a very strong WOOSTER team...I would love to see them play E&H again when the Wasps are clicking on all cylinders.  WOOSTER is a great TEAM.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg,

You are technically correct, but even jeffp sometimes refers to it at LM/Grinnell ball - there ARE many similarities.

If Hank Gathers had not collapsed and died, I really think LM would have been AT LEAST Final Four that year.  Even without Hank they blew out #1 seed (and #1 ranked) Michigan.  I 'bleed' maize and blue (on the days I'm not bleeding Titan Green and White! ), but after Bo Kimble made that left handed free throw in tribute to Hank, I couldn't see the next few minutes of the game through my tears. 

I have never been LESS disappointed over a Michigan loss in my life!  (Well, except for the nearly annual occasions when Eastern Michigan kicks their butts in Cross Country or Track and Field!) 

[billy_pilgrim]

don't think Michigan was #1 that year.....UNLV, the eventual national champion, was the #1 seed in that regional that ended with wins over Ball State and LMU in the Oakland Coliseum.

[Mr. Ypsi]

don't think Michigan was #1 that year.....UNLV, the eventual national champion, was the #1 seed in that regional that ended with wins over Ball State and LMU in the Oakland Coliseum.

As a MAC fan, I well remember when Bonzi Wells' BSU team came closer to beating UNLV than any other team did, but I don't THINK was the same year - I'm too tired tonite to look it up, but if no one beats me to it, I'll check tomorrow.

I DO recall that UM was HEAVILY favored, but was dumb enough to try to out run-and-gun LM - no doubt fun for the players, but not a real smart strategy!

[Gregory Sager]

You are technically correct, but even jeffp sometimes refers to it at LM/Grinnell ball - there ARE many similarities.

Jeff does that when he's referring to the full range of uptempo, run & gun, gambling-press-defense styles, of which there are many (Nolan Richardson's old Arkansas "amoeba" defense is another) -- but Jeff is very clear about the fact that the Westhead and Arseneault systems are quite different. And having seen both of them in action, I can attest to that as well.

[wally_wabash]

Michigan was a #3 seed that year, Loyola was a #11 seed.  Strangely enough, Loyola won their next game in the regional semis by a score of 62-60 over Alabama.  That might have been the strangest score of the tournament.