MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[sac]

Any D3 school that has a golf course on campus gets the nod over any school that doesn't in my book.

[kiltedbryan]

Well, I see that by not posting my thoughts on this game for 24 hours means that I've already missed all the nice, respectful discussions of last night's game.    I understand we're involved in a fierce rivalry here, but I guess I hadn't realized that "rivalry" included "demean everything you can think of about the other school..."

Wittenberg and Wooster both have outstanding academic reputations, like every school in this conference.  It probably wouldn't hurt us all to show a bit more of that college education in our d3hoops posts, too.      Wooster fans might do well to remember that our current coach is a Wittenberg graudate, and we generally seem to think he's a pretty smart guy...so he just might have gotten a decent education somewhere along the line.

I detest with a passion the "*^#& on Witt" cheer.  I never joined it when I was a student, and it always makes me feel ashamed to be wearing Wooster colors at the game when our students/my peers decide that such a cheer was somehow in line with the notion of rooting or supporting your team.  It is unfortunate that Wooster's students can't seem to use their education either when devising anything to yell across the gym.

Now, my thoughts on the game.

Reading some of the reactions in here, I feel that at times maybe I was watching a different basketball game than some of the other posters.  Yes, there was plenty of defensive intensity.  There was certainly plenty of physical play, if not overly physical play.  My read on the officiating was that, as is typical in this matchup, there are simply too many fouls to be called for them to possibily call all of them, so there are blantent mis-calls or non-calls on both sides.  It's hard to be perfectly or even marginally consistent in a game where there's so much contact that each time down the floor you could call about 2-3 fouls.  In fact, I felt that particularly in the last 10 minutes of the first half, all we were doing was trading fouls/foul shots, and that the flow of the game had disappeared because of all the fouling and free throws.  I thought it was a gritty half, but not a particularly great half of basketball.  I felt the same way about some of the second half, as well.

I want to give credit to Borchers, Hill and Hemingway.  Obviously they came to play and performed well.  In all the games that I've seen Borchers, I feel like he always draws plenty of fouls, which, since he's usually nearly automatic from the line, means easy points for Witt.  Borchers will alwasy get the ball low and lean back into his defender, then bump him back, bump him back, bump him back while dribbling, then put on the spin move and one last bump into the defender that seems to often result in a blocking foul while Borchers is free to use his excellent touch around the hoop to attempt an old-fashioned three point play.  I've always felt that this move is unfair to defenders because it always seems that Borchers is initiating all the contact, and sometimes even seeming to really lower the shoulder in on his spin move, and yet he never appears to get an offensive foul whistled on him.

For Wooster, this was my first chance to see them in person this year, and I basically felt like this matchup and the physical play didn't allow me to get a good sense for just how good they might be this year.  Vandervaart was neutralized by injury and foul trouble, Port by foul trouble, too, and Woo played mostly at Witt's slower, half-court tempo.  Johnson brings more athleticism to the point position than Witucky did- and he is more offensively-minded, as well.

I will say this though- Wooster is as talented, or more talented than last year.  Witt is not- at least, they haven't quite replaced Russ and Brady yet.  And so I'm actually very surprised that this was a 3-point game that Wooster escaped with last night. It might be an excellent game in Wooster come Feburary, but I think Wooster shows its talent better at home and ends up winning by 10-15.

Well, I think that's enough for one post.  

[Pat Coleman]

honestly, I'm a little bit confounded by how this game doesn't get more front page coverage on D3hoops.com. But maybe it's just me...

D3hoops.com and D3football.com are run by zero full-time staffers. Each of us does this out of our own free time. On December Saturdays, our time is especially limited because we are also dealing with Division III football playoffs. Something has to give, and that's the thought of previewing any basketball games. You'll have to live with postgame coverage, sorry.

If the game were at Wooster we could've been there in person, though. Much closer to Mount Union.

[Pat Coleman]

I think 'modify' only appears after some minimum number of posts.

I guess I'll keep posting up and see where the magical number is.

And/or email Pat to restore my previous Post Up name:witt4ever

After last night more than ever,
w4e

Please use the same username and password you used to make this post.

However: I have combined your previous data in here in terms of karma (+1) and total number of posts (120). And your name will display as witt4ever. But your username and password will not change.

[smedindy]

UC-Clermont is actually a 4-year school, too. So it should count. AND they are transitioning to D-3 if I understand.

They play a lot of Ohio-Name Your Branch schools but seem to have also scheduled some D-3 schools in order to get ready for the switch.

[pennstghs]

wow-things have gotten a little heated on here. a few things to sum up

i agree with petewitt definitely. you cannot offend my alma mater for reasons that are beyond our control. i am living because that disgraceful school employs my father and provides our family's income as well. your coach also did somehow graduate from such a classy institution, so i guess that's kind of eating your own words.
-yes the ticket prices were a little steep for fans, BUT the students and faculty still did get in free-this does promote more witt associates to attend the game and steer support in our favor. im sure wooster has never done any tactic to try and raise their profits at all. i mean this is the reason we have the B.S. i mean BCS still-money......and as for classless and disgraceful how about the wooster students taunting us as we walked out of the gym-bet you guys are real proud you had to have 4 cops guard our students from your students.

-as for the rough play-it is a rivalry game where teams "supposedly" let everyone lay out on the court and i feel that this was the case-the refs for the most part let the teams play-and for witt getting the calls? i guess this is way wooster had a 1-5 foul advantage in the second half while we were getting tacky loose ball foul calls where our guys were straihgt up as well on rebounds, but witt did get some favorable callas as did wooster-we've come to expect this from the NCAC refs--we just pray that one of their no-calls dont affect the outcome severely.

-as for the game i believe i hit it straight on that if we can neutralize their 3-point shooting with our perimeter defense we will have a chance to win-and witt nearly did-we never let cooper get streaky and hot-more spread out scoring from hiim-and got port in fouul trouble early and didnt hear anything from him until the end of the game unfortunately.

-final note....come on guys this was as competitive and fulfilling of a D3 game that one could ask for. i out of all people am remaining calm about this loss and attacks on witt as anyone. it was a GREAT game and is what college sports should be about. we dont need this banter back and forth on here about who is classless and tacky and worthless. lets just focus on the games and whats to come-i mean come on we have wooster being neutralized on the scoring end, witt's turnovers at the end, big play from big players to talk about.....

comments???

[Gregory Sager]

Are you saying that OSU-Marion is a two-year school?  Holy cow, what on earth was Lincoln doing scheduling them at all?

OSU-Marion is a four-year school.

[Gregory Sager]

As far as DIII rivalries go, I'm just going by basketball here since this is a basketball forum.  Besides, most of us in here are pretty familiar with the heated rivalry that goes along with the Monon Bell.  As far as basketball rivalries go, no doubt about Hope and Calvin being far ahead of the rest.  I don't think it's too much of a stretch to put Witt-Woo at #2 on that list though.  When you bring in all of the factors:  #1 and #2 winningest programs in DIII, conference championship implications every time they meet winning or sharing the NCAC regular season championship in each of the last 18 years, and not to mention the recent national ranking implications with this being the 5th time that one of these 2 teams has come into the game with the #1 ranking in the last 7 years and in each of those games, the #1 ranked team fell (that's going to change tonight

You're forgetting about Amherst/Williams. That rivalry brings everything to the table that the Witt/Woo rivalry brings -- long-standing national powerhouses, conference championship implications, a history that includes both regular-season and postseason contests (Amherst and Williams are the only two conference foes to ever meet in the D3 Final Four; the Ephs beat the Lord Jeffs in the 2004 semis). But it also bring two things to the table that the Woo/Witt rivalry doesn't -- better geographical proximity (60 miles, as opposed to Witt & Woo's 140) and a longer and more bitter history (Amherst's original faculty and student body seceded from Williams somewhere around 1820; Williams people still refer to the Lord Jeffs as "the Defectors"). Those two schools, like Hope and Calvin, have been carrying on their private war much, much longer and more regularly in all sports (but especially football and basketball) than have Witt and Woo.

[Gregory Sager]

'bama-Auburn is a state (or at most, regional) killer rivalry; UM-OSU is a national rivalry.  I'd say that on a national level the only comparison would be Army-Navy (back when they were good).  Or, perhaps, for a few years (but long gone now), Oklahoma-Nebraska.

Army/Navy is still the best college football rivalry. Alabama/Auburn is an intrastate rivalry. OSU/Michigan is a regional rivalry (no, Chuck, it's not national -- nobody in Montana or Georgia gives a rip about the Wolverines and the Buckeyes). Army/Navy is truly international, because just about every grunt and swabbie across the globe takes time out from his or her duties to watch or listen to the game on the Armed Forces Network. The game is the classic manifestation of the age-old rivalry between the two services that flares up every time a sergeant crosses paths with a petty officer in a bar in some remote corner of the planet. It's also a true "throw out the records" rivalry, since it matters not one whit whether both teams are good, both teams are bad, or one team's up while the other team's down.

Read John Feinstein's excellent A Civil War, and you'll understand why there really is no other rivalry in sports quite like Army/Navy. It's completely unique. The hatred is as fierce and white-hot as any rivalry anywhere (for one week a year at the U.S. Military Academy and the U.S. Naval Academy, and one week only, it's permissible to answer a direct order with "Beat Navy!" or "Beat Army!" instead of "Yes, sir!" or "Yes, ma'am!"), and because both the service academies and the services as a whole are national institutions it's a rivalry that knows no state or regional boundaries. The pageantry of the servicemen and -women in full uniform filling out their sections of the stadium is pretty amazing.

But the best part of the game is the ending. No matter who wins, and no matter how badly they beat each others' brains out, at the end of the game the players from both sides intermingle in front of the Navy section of the stadium and stand at attention as "Anchors Aweigh" is played by the Navy band, and then both teams walk over to the Army section and stand at attention as the USMA Alma Mater is played by the Army band.

There's a reason for this closing ritual, and it's a big part of why this rivalry goes beyond Alabama/Auburn, USC/UCLA, Ohio State/Michigan, and all the rest: Every member of the Corps of Cadets and the Corps of Midshipmen knows that, no matter how much he or she hates the other side, those rivals will become brothers-in-arms upon graduation. They already have a common bond, because they know that few college students besides those at the other academy truly understand just how rigorous and grueling those four years really are for them from both a mental and a physical standpoint. But when you know that the people on the other sideline will be standing with you on the firing line as fellow officers when the country calls you to duty, it puts a different spin on the rivalry than you see at other places. The hatred is tempered with a mutual respect and a commonality of larger purpose that you just don't see in the more frivolous and ephemeral world of intercollegiate sports outside of the service academies.

[ScotsFan]

Now, my thoughts on the game.

My read on the officiating was that, as is typical in this matchup, there are simply too many fouls to be called for them to possibily call all of them, so there are blantent mis-calls or non-calls on both sides.  It's hard to be perfectly or even marginally consistent in a game where there's so much contact that each time down the floor you could call about 2-3 fouls.  In fact, I felt that particularly in the last 10 minutes of the first half, all we were doing was trading fouls/foul shots, and that the flow of the game had disappeared because of all the fouling and free throws.  I thought it was a gritty half, but not a particularly great half of basketball.  I felt the same way about some of the second half, as well.

I have to disagree here.  I was not at the game in person, but I did watch the replay on the local cable access channel and I have to say that there were many calls, especially in the 1st half, where I thought the refs should just let the play go on.  In a game of this magnitude, the players should be dictating play, not the referees.  The reason you came away feeling as though it wasn't a 'great' half  of basketball is because the referees never allowed the flow of the game to be established because they were too busy blowing their whistles.

In all the games that I've seen Borchers, I feel like he always draws plenty of fouls, which, since he's usually nearly automatic from the line, means easy points for Witt.  Borchers will alwasy get the ball low and lean back into his defender, then bump him back, bump him back, bump him back while dribbling, then put on the spin move and one last bump into the defender that seems to often result in a blocking foul while Borchers is free to use his excellent touch around the hoop to attempt an old-fashioned three point play.  I've always felt that this move is unfair to defenders because it always seems that Borchers is initiating all the contact, and sometimes even seeming to really lower the shoulder in on his spin move, and yet he never appears to get an offensive foul whistled on him.

This was a problem in the 1st half.  I mean Witt had 4 trips in a row where Borchers went to the line for fouls that were called against Wooster's defenders for trying to hold their ground as Borchers backed them down.  From what I could tell, they were touch fouls at best.  The fouls were being called before Borchers was even shooting?!  I didn't really notice this as much in the 2nd half.  I think it was more of a fact that Wooster's defenders felt they had to lay off down low resulting in easy bunnies for Witt's post players.  I just don't like to see the referees feel like people came to the game to watch them which is the sense I got from this officiating crew.  As I said before, the officiating was equally poor for both sides.  I just felt like they were calling far too many silly touch fouls and as a result, didn't allow the game to flow at all.

-as for the game i believe i hit it straight on that if we can neutralize their 3-point shooting with our perimeter defense we will have a chance to win-and witt nearly did-we never let cooper get streaky and hot-more spread out scoring from hiim-and got port in fouul trouble early and didnt hear anything from him until the end of the game unfortunately.

Witt did do a good job on their defense of James Cooper, but their perimeter defense as a whole, was not the sole reason Wooster struggled from beyond the arc on Saturday night.  Wooster was getting plenty of open looks that just weren't dropping.  And as for getting Port into foul trouble early, again, I think you have the referees to thank for that because I would say that at least 2 of the fouls called on Port were questionable at best.  And it's probably too bad for Witt they couldn't get #5 called on him judging by his herorics at the end of the game and all.

Witt did do what they set out to do and that is keep the scoring down and they dictated the tempo to their credit.  They also had huge nights from, what I consider their 3 best players.  Greg Hill almost single handedly brought Witt back after they fell behind by 10 late in the 2nd half.  And Hemenway has really come a long way.  He really impressed me with his play on the inside.

When it's all said and done though, as much as Witt can be pleased in their performance, I think Wooster can be equally or even more pleased to come away with this W.  To start with the game was at Witt and that's never an easy place to play.  Then your leading scorer and best post presence gets saddled with foul trouble and is basically rendered a non-factor in the game.  As if that wasn't bad enough, Port gets into foul trouble early in the 2nd half and misses significant minutes down the stretch (just not enough minutes for Witt's liking ).  Wittenberg totally dictates the pace of this game which is in complete contrast with what Wooster likes to do.  If you were to tell me before the game that all of these components would factor in to the game, I would have a hard time believing that Wooster would come out with a W which is exactly what they did.  Wittenberg seemed to have everything line up the way they wanted it to and they still couldn't get it done.  Can Witt get a repeat performance perhaps with a different outcome in February at Wooster?  Personally, I wouldn't count on it.

[uknowme2]

Saturday was outstanding.  And the bickering on here is even better.

For everyone crying about the officials, I want you all to be well aware of the fact that each and everyone of you has the opportunity to officiate.  With that being said, I don't think too many of you will be jumping in line for that gig.  Sure they weren't the best, but certainly weren't the worst. 

Ultimately it comes down to this... Wooster fans felt like they should have won by 20 and the refs prevented that from happening. 

[Li'l Giant]

Ultimately it comes down to this... Wooster fans felt like they should have won by 20 and the refs prevented that from happening.

This has been brought up before but bears repeating.

[WoosterFAN]

Anyone wanna talk about OWU losing?

Some things that will never change:

(1) WOOSTER folks cannot stand Wittenberg folks and vice versa.  No one is 'better' than the other.  The rivarly must be respectful in nature.  After all, SCOTS coach is Wittenberg Alum!!

(2) Children will be children and a few will ruin it for the most.  Do not judge a whole school based on the actions a few.

(3) Let's not take any of this personally.  Because for most of us in here.  We are 'Howard Cosell":  We never played in the game!!

(4)  We agree that we hate all the schools in OAC and OWU...Right?

(5) And Wabash Always Fights.

That is all I got to say about that!!

Did anyone see how bad I did on the NCAC Pick 'em...Horrible, just horrible.

Go SCOTS!! GO BENGALS.

[uknowme2]

(3) Let's not take any of this personally.  Because for most of us in here.  We are 'Howard Cosell":  We never played in the game!!


Go SCOTS!! GO BENGALS.

I played in the game (on the football side).  It doesn't mean I don't respect the program.

And we do have something in common.

GO BENGALS!

[pennstghs]

another thing-why are wooster fans all edgy and jumpy-you would think you guys were on the losing end of things-i cant wait to see what happens when you guys lose........