MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

Has anyone ever asked the question if the selection is done only by the book, following the criteria to the letter with no subjectivity, why there is even a selection committee at all? Might as well just have one guy take an hour, make some matchups, and call it a day. Yet having almost no leeway on who to take, we wait until the following morning, almost two days after the vast majority of teams are done playing.

It's done by the book, yes, but the book does give some leeway. Remember, there isn't just one selection criterion -- there's five of them:

The primary criteria emphasize regional competition (all contests leading up to NCAA
championships); all criteria listed will be evaluated (not listed in priority order).
•  Win-loss percentage against regional opponents.
•  Strength-of-schedule (only contests versus regional competition).
- Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OWP).
- Opponents' Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OOWP).
[See Appendix B for explanation of OWP and OOWP calculations.]
•  In-region head-to-head competition.
•  In-region results versus common regional opponents.
•  In-region results versus regionally ranked teams.
Note:
• Ranked opponents are defined as those teams ranked at any time of the rankings/
selection process.
• Conference postseason contests are included.
• Contests versus provisional and reclassifying members in their third and fourth
years shall count in the primary criteria.  Provisional and reclassifying members
shall remain ineligible for rankings and selections.
Weighted Scale.  For a minimum of two championship seasons (2009-10 and 2010-
11), a weighted scale will apply.  Once the OWP and OOWP are calculated, they are
to be combined on a weighted scalre (e.g., 2/3 weight for OWP and 1/3 weight for
OOWP) and this combined number becomes the strength of schedule.

Note the parenthetical statement that I bolded and underlined. The book says that the committee has to use those five primary criteria, but it doesn't say how they should be used. Do you give the most weight to win-loss percentage? Do you take Team A, which has a better record versus regionally-ranked teams, or Team B, which has a better strength of schedule? And, once you have selected your nineteen Pool C teams, how do you then use the criteria to do your seeding and establish hosting rights (geography included, of course)?

In other words, it's not an automatic process. There's still plenty of room for some human subjectivity to enter into it. Not a lot, mind you, but some.

[KnightSlappy]

From the handbook:

"Should a committee find that evaluation of a team's win-loss percentage during 25
percent of the season is applicable, (i.e., end-of-seasn performance), it may adopt such
criteria with approval from the championships committee.
Additionally, input is provided by regional advisory committees for consideration by
the basketball committee."

They're allowed to see who's playing better recently and to receive "input" from advisory committees. They're not just robots bound by three or four rules.

[seinfeld]

I'm glad to hear that. Then maybe the regional rankings aren't an automatic guide as to where teams will end up?

I'm obviously coming at this from a Wooster standpoint, but why wouldn't they take into account the head-to-head with JCU was in November on the road, and that Wooster is obviously a different team now, having won 18-of-19. In Div. I, that game almost wouldn't even matter.

[KnightSlappy]

I'm glad to hear that. Then maybe the regional rankings aren't an automatic guide as to where teams will end up?

I'm obviously coming at this from a Wooster standpoint, but why wouldn't they take into account the head-to-head with JCU was in November on the road, and that Wooster is obviously a different team now, having won 18-of-19. In Div. I, that game almost wouldn't even matter.

I would think that being in the same region, once they do the regional rankings the "seeding" will follow a similar pattern. If they deem Wooster as higher than JCU (and I would think they will), I see no reason why they'd turn around and award JCU with the host over Wooster.

[Titan Q]

I'm glad to hear that. Then maybe the regional rankings aren't an automatic guide as to where teams will end up?

I'm obviously coming at this from a Wooster standpoint, but why wouldn't they take into account the head-to-head with JCU was in November on the road, and that Wooster is obviously a different team now, having won 18-of-19. In Div. I, that game almost wouldn't even matter.

If Wooster won the John Carroll game, and then stumbled upon hard times later in the season and found itself on the Pool C bubble, would you make the case here that the game shouldn't matter (since Wooster was a "different team" back then)?  Or would you be pointing to the John Carroll game as a reason Wooster should get in?  Just curious.

The game is considered (not as the end-all, be-all of Wooster vs John Carroll...but rather one factor), because the game actually took place.  Every game counts.

(And this is not Division I, where every committee member has seen every team play multiple times on TV.  The D3 criteria is necessary to establish some type of credibility and consistency in the process.)

[Gregory Sager]

From the handbook:

"Should a committee find that evaluation of a team's win-loss percentage during 25
percent of the season is applicable, (i.e., end-of-seasn performance), it may adopt such
criteria with approval from the championships committee.
Additionally, input is provided by regional advisory committees for consideration by
the basketball committee."

They're allowed to see who's playing better recently and to receive "input" from advisory committees. They're not just robots bound by three or four rules.

Yes, but that's a secondary criterion -- and, as the clause indicates, not even an automatically-used one. I'm sticking with the primary criteria in this discussion, so as to avoid confusion.

I'm glad to hear that. Then maybe the regional rankings aren't an automatic guide as to where teams will end up?

I'm obviously coming at this from a Wooster standpoint, but why wouldn't they take into account the head-to-head with JCU was in November on the road, and that Wooster is obviously a different team now, having won 18-of-19. In Div. I, that game almost wouldn't even matter.

Q's explanation, which I think hits the nail on the head, is probably the reasoning adopted by the NCAA as well.

[Pat Coleman]

Pretty simply, I think JCU still should be ranked ahead of Wooster based on the head-to-head result. As noted by others, the date of the game matters not to the NCAA. It's definitely a judgment call, but I feel it is silly to throw out the head-to-head simply because it happened a long time ago. The other vital stats tend to balance each other out -- Wooster has a significant edge in winning percentage, but JCU has an edge in SOS. Pool A vs. Pool C is not a criteria. Heck, in one year of the 48-team field, every team that got a first-round bye was a Pool C team. (Believe that was 2002.)

[seinfeld]

Calling any critique of the Div. III selection criteria silly is the only thing that is silly. Where did anyone say the head-to-head should be thrown out? All I said is that since the game was so long ago and on the road, it's significance should be lessened, not taken away all together. It would be seen that way in Div. I, but I suppose their silly to judge it that way as well.

Here is the news release on the new Wooster Rec Center. I wish they didn't make the picture so big. Takes up so much of my screen:

http://www.wooster.edu/News-and-Events/News-Releases/2010/March/Trustees-Authorize-Student-Recreation-Center

[Pat Coleman]

It would be seen that way in Div. I, but I suppose their silly to judge it that way as well.

Many things in Division I are different.

[seinfeld]

Oops, I guess I was wrong about Wooster/JCU 

[woolax]

So does the NCAA eventually post a printable bracket on thier website latter in the day?

[Pat Coleman]

I said throughout that that was a judgment call that could go either way.

Bracket: http://www.d3boards.com/playoffs/mbb-bracket2010.pdf

[WooHoopsntrack01]

How bout hosting again down in WOO!!!  Awesome.

Now as for the JCU talk, they won't make it past Maryville I don't think.  The Scots will whip Grove City without a doubt and end up facing Guilford probably on the road in NC.  That will be a very tough place to play as their gym is like a barn and can be kind of dark unless they've changed some things.  This worries me cause I dont think we match up too well against Guilford.  BUT, where there is a will there is a way. 

Now the team to watch outta this bracket is Eastern Mennonite.  They are solid, and probablu the most athletic team in this entire side of the bracket.  THEY CAN RUN.  They gave Guilford the business whooping them 90-63 so even Palumbo knows thats gonna be scary.  So watch it.

My final four for right now.....WILLIAMS, EASTERN MENNONITE, CARTHAGE, AND WILLIAM PATTERON.

MENNONITE AND CARTHAGE IN THE FINALS....

GAME GOES TO CARTHAGE. 

May change some things around, but i think that will be it.

[wally_wabash]

How bout hosting again down in WOO!!!  Awesome.

Now as for the JCU talk, they won't make it past Maryville I don't think.  The Scots will whip Grove City without a doubt and end up facing Guilford probably on the road in NC.  That will be a very tough place to play as their gym is like a barn and can be kind of dark unless they've changed some things.  This worries me cause I dont think we match up too well against Guilford.  BUT, where there is a will there is a way. 

Wow...that's not putting the cart in front of the horse or anything. 

[HopeConvert]

How bout hosting again down in WOO!!!  Awesome.

Now as for the JCU talk, they won't make it past Maryville I don't think.  The Scots will whip Grove City without a doubt and end up facing Guilford probably on the road in NC.  That will be a very tough place to play as their gym is like a barn and can be kind of dark unless they've changed some things.  This worries me cause I dont think we match up too well against Guilford.  BUT, where there is a will there is a way. 

Now the team to watch outta this bracket is Eastern Mennonite.  They are solid, and probablu the most athletic team in this entire side of the bracket.  THEY CAN RUN.  They gave Guilford the business whooping them 90-63 so even Palumbo knows thats gonna be scary.  So watch it.

My final four for right now.....WILLIAMS, EASTERN MENNONITE, CARTHAGE, AND WILLIAM PATTERON.

MENNONITE AND CARTHAGE IN THE FINALS....

GAME GOES TO CARTHAGE. 

May change some things around, but i think that will be it.