MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[imderekpoe]

I'm hitting the road in a few minutes!  With any luck we'll find our way to Greensboro in time for the first game tonight!

Go Scots!!

[countyroad]

Have a safe trip imderekpoe.  You're gonna have a good time down there.

[ScotsFan]

I put together the stats and rosters for the teams in the Guilford Sectional. 

They can be accessed here:  http://www.jtaswell.com/D3BB/2010_Guilford_Sectional.htm

For a running team, Wooster doesn't score all that much.  It looks like the running-est team in the Guilford sectional is... Eastern Mennonite.  That's believable to me.

It looks like Wooster is actually getting it done more with defense.   Interesting.

Wooster's offensive numbers didn't really start to click until about the last month of the season.  One of our Wooster regulars in here (seinfeld) made a point earlier that he felt as though there seemed to be a turning point in the season wrt the offense finally clicking and it was at the half of Wooster's first game with Hiram and I happen to agree.  Wooster was only averaging just under 69 ppg in their 17 games leading up to that game.  Wooster only held a 26-24 lead at the half, but the Scots came out and blitzed Hiram in the 2nd half to the tune of 41-19!  And since that game the Scots have been averaging almost 79 ppg!

And this team has excelled defesnively more than any Wooster team in recent memory.  Wooster has never had trouble scoring points and they've always been good defensively, but I just don't ever remember a Wooster team getting after it on the defensive end of the floor like this year's team!

So, when you combine how good they've been playing defensively with an offense that has finally seemed to gel over the last month of the season, I think you have the makings of a very dangerous team come tournament time as Whitewater already found out.   

BTW, 8 o'clock can't get here soon enough!!!  Good luck to all four teams tonight and safe travels to all that are making the trek down to GREENSBORO!  (hasanova, that was for you      )

[seinfeld]

Guilford students are on spring break, but according to this article (http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/03/12/article/no_students_no_problem_for_quakers), the women's lacrosse team will be there, so that should be a wash.

Looking over imderekpoe stats quickly, I noticed something interesting. What it means, if anything, I don't know. Guilford has been called for 74 less fouls than Wooster in the same number of games, and 113 less fouls than their opponents. Only one Guilford player has fouled out, and that was a guard off the bench. Sanborn, despite his size, is not a magnet for fouls. He averages less than two fouls per game.

Wooster, on the other hand, has actually committed five more fouls than their opponents, and have had nine players foul out. What Wooster's foul totals show, in part, is that the Scots do not get favorable treatment from the refs despite their winning tradition. Considering they are leading at the end of most games, forcing other teams to foul, Wooster still has more fouls called against them.

[hasanova]

BTW, 8 o'clock can't get here soon enough!!!  Good luck to all four teams tonight and safe travels to all that are making the trek down to GREENSBORO!  (hasanova, that was for you      )

Thanks.   There's probably a game somewhere in Charlotte, but it won't be the Scots and the Quakers!  lol

[hasanova]

Guilford students are on spring break, but according to this article (http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/03/12/article/no_students_no_problem_for_quakers), the women's lacrosse team will be there, so that should be a wash.

Looking over imderekpoe stats quickly, I noticed something interesting. What it means, if anything, I don't know. Guilford has been called for 74 less fouls than Wooster in the same number of games, and 113 less fouls than their opponents. Only one Guilford player has fouled out, and that was a guard off the bench. Sanborn, despite his size, is not a magnet for fouls. He averages less than two fouls per game.

Wooster, on the other hand, has actually committed five more fouls than their opponents, and have had nine players foul out. What Wooster's foul totals show, in part, is that the Scots do not get favorable treatment from the refs despite their winning tradition. Considering they are leading at the end of most games, forcing other teams to foul, Wooster still has more fouls called against them.

The baseball and softball teams are in town also, so I think they'll be there.  Hopefully, students who live within reasonable driving distance will also make the trip back to campus.

Regarding the fouls, perhaps the Scots "don't get favorable treatment from the refs," but it can also mean some flaws in their defensive technique.  I haven't seen CoW play this season, so it'll be interesting to see how the game's called tonight. 

[wally_wabash]

Wooster, on the other hand, has actually committed five more fouls than their opponents, and have had nine players foul out. What Wooster's foul totals show, in part, is that the Scots do not get favorable treatment from the refs despite their winning tradition.

Seriously with this?  Wooster has been called for more fouls than their opponents, ergo, Wooster is getting jammed by the officials.  It couldn't be that Wooster is just fouling more than the other team....nope.  They must be getting snowed.

A huge peeve of mine when it comes to basketball is this notion that game officials are somehow obligated to make sure that the team fouls are even.  Wrong.  Game officials are obligated to call fouls when fouls happen.  If one team fouls more, then one team fouls more. 

[seinfeld]

Wally, thanks for showing up. That post was for you and other Wabash guys, including the SID and coaches, who imply that Wooster gets calls, and that the Ohio teams get calls at the NCAC Tournament. You have even put it in your past posts. Sorry your highness doesn't think that pointing out that Wooster gets called for a lot of fouls is not appropriate comment. Maybe I should review some of the game film of Wooster that you apparently have and I don't.

[ScotsFan]

Thanks for the well wishes wally...    Nice to see the NCAC support out there for Wooster.  

BTW, why are you still lurking in the basketball forum anyways?  I figured your attention would be 100% on football once Wabash was ousted from the tournament...

And what part of seinfeld's post did he complain about getting jammed by the officials?  You and your fellow Wabash supporters are the ones constantly whining about how unfair it is that all of the big bad Ohio schools in the NCAC seem to have an unfair advantage when it comes to officials having it out for Indiana schools.  I think seinfeld just pointed out, that based on the numbers, it doesn't appear that there is any favoritism being shown to Wooster.  So, maybe you should try and start coming up with some new conspiracy theories this offseason?!?!  

[seinfeld]

I'll attempt to offer some sort of comment that I think is relevant, but I do so with trepidation out of fear that I'm secretly blaming the refs or some other entity that feels this information has no meaning. Others have already pointed this out, but turnovers, without oversimplifying, has been the death of Wooster in all its tournament games in the 2000s. Check out these numbers:

2009:  Capital - 14
2008:  Washington U. - 13
2007:  Amherst - 15
2007:  Washington U. (consolation game) - 15
2006:  Transy - 16
2005:  Albion - 16
2004:  JCU - 20
2003:  Williams - 22
2001:  Carthage - 12
2000:  Calvin - 20

Their lowest total is 12 turnovers, and five times they had 16 or more. Average is 16.3 turnovers per game. Wooster is going to have to keep it around 10 turnovers if they are going to win, IMHO.

[ScotsFan]

seinfeld,

Do you have the numbers for tournament wins?  Personally, I don't think anything under 15 turnovers in a ballgame is all that bad.  Especially when you consider that most teams you will run across come tournament time more than likely play pretty solid defense.

I'm just asking because I know that Wooster averaged 16.5 turnovers in their two wins over the weekend including 19 vs Whitewater.

[wally_wabash]

Sorry for not jumping on the Wooster bandwagon, fellas.  It would be insincere of me to jump on here and start banging the drum for the Scots because frankly, I'm completely indifferent about what Wooster does in the tournament.  Whether the Scots lose in the first round or win the whole thing, it really doesn't do much for me or for Wabash.  Don't worry...I'm not rooting against Wooster.  I'm just not really rooting in general. 

Let's review the statement, emphasis added to the key part:

What Wooster's foul totals show, in part, is that the Scots do not get favorable treatment from the refs despite their winning tradition.

When I read that, with the qualifier "despite their winning tradition", what I'm understanding is that because Wooster has a winning tradition, they are entitled to some kind of favorable treatment.  That kind of spoiled, elitist dialogue just can't go unchecked. 

I've quit analyzing/critiquing/judging the officiating in our league.  It is what it is.  Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad, sometimes they're absolutely terrible.  Game officials don't win or lose games for anybody and to say otherwise is the weakest of weaksauce. 

Sorry your highness doesn't think that pointing out that Wooster gets called for a lot of fouls is not appropriate comment. Maybe I should review some of the game film of Wooster that you apparently have and I don't.

Maybe, and I know this is radical so I want you to really take your time and think about it before you respond, but maybe Wooster gets called for a lot of fouls because...wait for it....they commit a lot of fouls.  Why does it have to be that they're getting picked on by the officials?  Why can't it just simply be that they get called for fouls because they commit fouls?  Does that make way too much sense? 

[seinfeld]

ScotsFan,

You actually made a good point that I didn't think too much about. You're right, in their last 12 tournament wins, they have averaged 15.4 turnovers per game, so there isn't much difference. Although this average is inflated by one game -- Ramapo in 2003, when they committed 28 turnovers and still won. There was also an overtime game against Brockport St. where they committed 14.

So I'm probably overstating the impact of the raw number of turnovers, although just because they are in the tournament shouldn't necessarily mean they turn the ball over that much more. What is more important is the number of turnovers committed vs. the number of turnovers created. Don't have the time to go into that now. The bottom line, I still believe, especially on the road against a really good team, is to maximize attempts. Wooster has shown they can get open looks against anyone, they just need to make sure not to waste possessions.

[smedindy]

A "winning tradition" shouldn't mean squat. A team with a more aggressive defense will get called for more fouls. A team that plays a passive zone will get called for less fouls. There is no evidence that Wooster gets less favorable treatment based on the raw foul call totals.

For example, Denison was called for 10 less fouls in the game at Wooster. In the last 10 minutes, Wooster outfouled Denison 9-2. The 20+ point lead was not in jeopardy despite the numerical disparity.

Against Carnegie Mellon, Wooster outfouled their guests 25-19. Most of those fouls occurred in the second half - 7 in the last 10 minutes while the Scots held a double digit lead.

When the Scots whapped Wabash in December, Wooster outfouled the LG's 19-16.

In the losses for Wooster, they committed more fouls only 3 times out of 5. So even the supposition that a losing team fouls more is shaky at best and an invalid hypothesis at worst.

Save the hyperbole, please, about Wooster not getting the benefit of the doubt, especially when using a line like 'despite their winning tradition'.

[ScotsFan]

The bottom line, I still believe, especially on the road against a really good team, is to maximize attempts. Wooster has shown they can get open looks against anyone, they just need to make sure not to waste possessions.

Oh, I agree completely.  I wasn't trying to imply that the Scots can be completely careless with the basketball and get away with it.  Especially on the road against a good team.  As I said.  I think if the Scots can limit their turnovers to under 15, I'll be happy with that.