MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[pufin]

We hear a lot about how tough Wooster's schedule is (and it has been, no doubt), but look at what OWU and to a lesser extent Allegheny have gone up against.  Of course, one of Wooster's tougher games (UST) was extraregional and thus not reflected above, but then again so was OWU's game vs. WashU.  The Bishops are battle-tested, and I think they may be on the verge of pulling it all together and going on a run. 

I saw that right away, too. But make sure you look at the OOWP as well. OWU's OOWP is among the bottom four of the conference. So, OWU is winning against teams with good records, but those good records are coming aginst bad teams.

[ScotsFan]

Fair enough, but then who are the 'better teams in the AMCC' that will expose PSU-Behrend?

I should have phrased that a bit differently seeing as how I don't really think too highly of the AMCC as a whole.    Heck, PSU-B was exposed by one of the weaker teams in the conference.  Because of that, I see them struggling not to rack up 2-3 more losses by the time it's all said and done.

[wally_wabash]

I should have phrased that a bit differently seeing as how I don't really think too highly of the AMCC as a whole.   

Something about rocks and glass houses....I don't know if you've looked around at our league over the last handful of years but the NCAC, as a whole, doesn't lift too many eyebrows either. 

[ScotsFan]

Mr. Sager - the point you made about a team with a high historical winning percentage not getting votes should be exactly why a team such as WOOSTER should not be ranked. You shouldn't get benefit of the doubt votes for losses versus tough teams. My point was that Wittenberg should at least be getting votes based on their performance THIS year.

Personally, I think it has to do with pre-season polls.  IMHO, I do not like pre-season polls in any sport at any level.  Sure, they're fun for the fans to talk about, but they also give cause to a lot of teams being over-rated and a lot of other teams being under-rated.  Look at traditionally strong teams like JCU and Wooster from our neck of the woods or Wheaton from the midwest.  All 3 were in the top 15 in the pre-season poll.  Had the first poll come out after the new year, none of them would have likely been ranked.  But because of how highly they were ranked in the pre-season poll, it has taken them longer to drop out.

On the other hand, you have a team like Eastern Mennonite who wasn't even on the radar of the pre-season poll.  Yet, here we are halfway through January and they are still undefeated vs. D3 opponents including the #12 team in the country and the previous #1 team in the country.  And they are still ranked 4 spots below R-MC whom they beat soundly BTW and 3 spots below WashU with 2 losses to D3 opponents.  Again.  This is because EMU wasn't even a blip on the radar in the pre-season poll and has had to slowly climb their way up the ladder.

This is why I have never been a big fan of pre-season rankings.  You never can tell when a team might come from nowhere that nobody was expecting.  And likewise, you can never tell whether certain newcomers could make immediate impacts for certain teams just as you can never be certain how losses to graduation could affect certain teams.  Using Wooster as an example, the Scots lost just one starter and had Brandon Johnson coming back.  Certainly, looking at last season, it's not that inconcievable to think that Wooster could be a top 10 team with the talent they had returning.  But the impact of the loss of Bidwell has been far greater than anyone really anticipated.  Thus, their record and their inconsistent play has reflected that.

Anyways, it's the regional rankings you should be focused on penn.  Those are the rankings that have a direct impact on the NCAA tournament.  Not the D3hoops top 25 poll.  And your Tigers did receive 3 votes in the latest poll FWIW... 

[ScotsFan]

Something about rocks and glass houses....I don't know if you've looked around at our league over the last handful of years but the NCAC, as a whole, doesn't lift too many eyebrows either. 

Well, maybe you're right wrt the lower tier teams in our respective conferences being on par with each other.  However, IMO, it is the upper tier teams that set the NCAC above the AMCC.  To prove my point, you don't have to look any further than the NCAA tournament.  How many teams from the AMCC have advanced to the final four in the last decade?  Heck, how many teams from the AMCC have made it even just out of the first round? 

The NCAC may not be the deepest conference or raise a lot of eyebrows as you say, but I would still say we stack up better than the AMCC top to bottom.

[Gregory Sager]

Mr. Sager - the point you made about a team with a high historical winning percentage not getting votes should be exactly why a team such as WOOSTER should not be ranked. You shouldn't get benefit of the doubt votes for losses versus tough teams. My point was that Wittenberg should at least be getting votes based on their performance THIS year.

Personally, I think it has to do with pre-season polls.  IMHO, I do not like pre-season polls in any sport at any level.  Sure, they're fun for the fans to talk about, but they also give cause to a lot of teams being over-rated and a lot of other teams being under-rated.  Look at traditionally strong teams like JCU and Wooster from our neck of the woods or Wheaton from the midwest.  All 3 were in the top 15 in the pre-season poll.  Had the first poll come out after the new year, none of them would have likely been ranked.  But because of how highly they were ranked in the pre-season poll, it has taken them longer to drop out.

On the other hand, you have a team like Eastern Mennonite who wasn't even on the radar of the pre-season poll.  Yet, here we are halfway through January and they are still undefeated vs. D3 opponents including the #12 team in the country and the previous #1 team in the country.  And they are still ranked 4 spots below R-MC whom they beat soundly BTW and 3 spots below WashU with 2 losses to D3 opponents.  Again.  This is because EMU wasn't even a blip on the radar in the pre-season poll and has had to slowly climb their way up the ladder.

This is why I have never been a big fan of pre-season rankings.  You never can tell when a team might come from nowhere that nobody was expecting.  And likewise, you can never tell whether certain newcomers could make immediate impacts for certain teams just as you can never be certain how losses to graduation could affect certain teams.  Using Wooster as an example, the Scots lost just one starter and had Brandon Johnson coming back.  Certainly, looking at last season, it's not that inconcievable to think that Wooster could be a top 10 team with the talent they had returning.  But the impact of the loss of Bidwell has been far greater than anyone really anticipated.  Thus, their record and their inconsistent play has reflected that.

Anyways, it's the regional rankings you should be focused on penn.  Those are the rankings that have a direct impact on the NCAA tournament.  Not the D3hoops top 25 poll.  And your Tigers did receive 3 votes in the latest poll FWIW... 

Great post, ScotsFan. I'm in complete agreement with you; I think that the preseason poll ends up skewing in-season polls, often for months after play begins in the cases of certain teams (e.g., Eastern Mennonite). However, I do understand why Pat does a preseason poll and commences the week-to-week continuity of the Top 25 poll with it: It's a great attention-getting device for the site at the outset of the season and it follows the calendar used by polls on other levels of college basketball.

[David Collinge]

We hear a lot about how tough Wooster's schedule is (and it has been, no doubt), but look at what OWU and to a lesser extent Allegheny have gone up against.  Of course, one of Wooster's tougher games (UST) was extraregional and thus not reflected above, but then again so was OWU's game vs. WashU.  The Bishops are battle-tested, and I think they may be on the verge of pulling it all together and going on a run. 

I saw that right away, too. But make sure you look at the OOWP as well. OWU's OOWP is among the bottom four of the conference. So, OWU is winning against teams with good records, but those good records are coming aginst bad teams.

I think what you're seeing there is the effect of the conference schedule.  So far Wooster has played OWU, 'Gheny, Earlham, Wabash, and Kenyon 2x.  OWU has played Wooster, Witt, Gheny, Denison, Kenyon and Hiram.  Throw out the common opponents and you have Woo vs. Wabash, OWU, EC and a second dose of Kenyon, and OWU vs. Woo, Witt, DU and Hiram.  OWU's NCAC opponents, excluding DU, have high OWPs and low OOWPs, whereas Wooster's opponents, excluding Wabash, have low OWPs and middling to high OOWPs.   

The non-conference schedules of these two were comparable in difficulty.

[David Collinge]

Tonight's menu:

Appetizer: Kenyon (1-5) at Earlham (1-5), 7:30pm -- Live stats and audio
Meat: Wittenberg (5-1) at Wabash (4-2), 7:30pm -- Live everything (Wab) (note that Wally's Twitter feed gets a Wabash.edu link!) plus live audio (Witt)
Vegetables: Wooster (6-0) at Oberlin (0-6), ~8pm -- Live everything (OC) plus live audio (COW) -- game 2 of an OC/COW doubleheader (women's game at 6)
Dessert: OWU (3-3) at Denison (3-3), ~8pm -- Live stats and audio -- game 2 of a doubleheader (DU women vs. Earlham at 6)
Cigars & Brandy: Allegheny (3-3) at Hiram (4-2), ~8pm -- Live everything -- game 2 of a doubleheader (HC women vs. OWU at 6)

Bon appétit!

[wally_wabash]

All told, that's a pretty solid slate of games tonight. 

In the interest of full disclosure, while my Tweetstream did get linked on the Wabash page (talk about your pleasant surprises!), I will not be in attendance tonight.  I'm on a plane during gametime tonight.  The temptation to use my phone to follow livestats during the flight is enormous.   

My in-game tweets will return for the 1/27 game vs. OWU. 

Go Bash, beat Witt! 

[wally_wabash]

In the meantime, does anyone besides me think that Wednesday's Wooster-at-Oberlin game looks like a trap game for the Scots?

You know, I kind of chuckled this one away but....the New Orleans Saints are one game away from the Super Bowl, Tiger Woods is a sex addict of all things, and Republican Senators are being elected in the bluest of blue states.  The world is a crazy place right now.   

[pennstghs]

To redeem my karma  point......wally I will take your role and keep periodic updates on the forum tonight from the Witt/Wabash game. This of course is pending the "live" video feed that DC implies will be working.....

Having not seen Wabash yet this year, it will be interesting to see how they match up with Witt. Probably one of the more deep teams I'm guessing Witt has faced so far, short of possibly Capital of even Anderson

[pennstghs]

Wittenberg has started it out forcing things inside to Cooper and is ahead 7-5 early.

Couple of comments.....where is the crowd, it doesn' tlook like this "hyped" game is drawing a huge crowd.

Also, can the video producers quit going to a under the basket camera as the viewpoint they have is awful

Update: 11:31 min to go in the first half:
-- Witt is up 13-9 with Chris Sullivan continuing his hot shooting as he is 2-2 from 3 point range tonight with 9 points already

8 minutes to go--
wabash is on a run led by offensive rebounds to take a 18-16 lead

3:50 to go in the half, Wabash up 26-20 after Wes Smith gets on the scoreboard finally. Sullivan has cooled off a little, missing his last 3 shots. Wittenberg needs to keep pounding the post

[wally_wabash]

I so hate that I'm not at this game right now. Go Bash!!

[wooscotsfan]

At the Half: Wabash 31  Wittenberg 24

~12 mins left:  Wabash 43  Witt 43

Witt led 45-43 before Wabash regained the lead
8:24 left   Bash 49  Witt 47

was tied at 49-49, Bash on a 4-0 run
6:58 left  Bash 53  Witt 49
5:14 left  Bash 57  Witt 49, now an 8-0 run
3:45 left  Bash 57  Witt 52, David Hieber three pointer
3:10 left  Bash 59  Witt 52, Ben Burkett layup for Bash
2:16 left  Bash 61  Witt 54
0:57 left  Bash 62  Witt 54
0:41 left  Bash 64  Witt 54  Brock 2 free throws for Bash
0:24 left  Bash 64  Witt 57  Tigers hit three pointer

FINAL:  Wabash 64  Wittenberg 57  Nice win for the Little Giants as they knock off the Tigers

[David Collinge]

The women's games at both Oberlin and Hiram went to OT, so those men's games are late starters.  That means that those of you watching the Witt/Wabash game (or following Kenyon/Earlham) should be able to watch the second half of either Woo/Oberlin or Gheny/Hiram afterwards. 

Kenyon leads Earlham 41-28, 16:57 left in the 2nd, while OWU is out to a 21-14 lead at Denison, 9:55 left in the 1st.

UPDATES: Kenyon is up 21 inside the final minute, putting the finishing touches on a victory at Earlham.  FINAL SCORE: Kenyon 77, Earlham 56
OWU leads Denison 42-29 at the half.
Gheny is up 9 on Hiram with about 7 to go before the half.
Wooster leads Oberlin by 10 with about 5 left in the 1st half.