MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[smedindy]

If the refs are letting players bang around - then they'll bang around. If refs call ticky tack fouls they won't.

I'd rather not have the ticky tack fouls called, but I'd much rather have the refs be consistent. If JCU is physical and the refs allow it - then Wooster has to adjust or go home.

JCU is physical, but they get CALLED for the fouls. They routinely get called for more fouls than their opponent (I checked their stats starting from the 2008 season) and usually are called for about 4 to 5 more fouls per game than Wooster. (The exception in 2009 when JCU was called for 21.8 fouls per game and Wooster 20.0). In 2008-09, JCU was 25-5 and outfouled their opponents 655-596.

You should know, Woo Boo, as a Diamond Mind person, that you need facts instead of anecdotes.

Nothing I hate worse in hockey than an interference call in the first period that all of a sudden is allowed in the third. Same in hoops.

[wally_wabash]

You just told us that refs don't call fouls against Wooster's opponents because they want to speed the game up. Do you have any idea how absurd that is?  Say it out loud. It's ludicrous.

[woosterbooster]

Wallace, once again you've managed to twist my words.  Well done, and very conservative-like; you must be one.  Try reading my post.  The word Wooster isn't even in it.  JCU's opponent is irrelevant; this happens to whomever they happen to be playing that night.  And if you've ever watched any basketball at all, and don't have a feeling that, at least in garbage time, the officials are ignoring many things due to a desire to just let the game move on, then you're not paying much attention.  Not that you'll take my opinion for anything, but I believe that something similar eventually happens in JCU's games.  The refs sense, rightly or wrongly, that the fans are tired of hearing so many whistles.  So, they blow them less.  It's what they do.

This season, in JCU's ten games, they've commited 202 fouls to their opponents 195.  Nearly a wash.  My contention, and I stand by it, is that above and beyond the 202 fouls that JCU has been called for they commit at least two or three times that many more which are either missed (even six eyes can't be everywhere at once) or ignored (they just just tired of blowing the whistles).  Certainly their opponents have commited, but not been called for, more than that 195.  But they don't get away with nearly as much because they simply aren't doing as much.

There are no numbers to support this contention.  But basketball, and all sports, are not simply numbers.  I'd suggest seeing JCU play.  I have, several times, hence my feelings.







 

[wabashsid]

There will be video for the Wabash vs. Wooster game.

[David Collinge]

I can't really vouch for JCU, but I've seen what Wooster Booster is describing, probably most often from Hiram.  I think they have a strategy to crash the boards as hard as they can and try to set the tone early for the officials--if you're going to call everything, you'll be blowing the whistle on every play.  They get them into the mindset early that only the really clear fouls will be called.  It doesn't work with all referees, of course, but I think it works more often than not.  The key is for the other team to figure out what that level of officiating is and play to it, but if you're not normally a physically aggressive team, it's hard to adjust; and if you manage to adjust, you're playing Hiram's game and not your own.

I could be totally wrong, of course, but that's been my observation over the years.

[John Gleich]

Wallace, once again you've managed to twist my words.  Well done, and very conservative-like; you must be one.  Try reading my post.  The word Wooster isn't even in it.  JCU's opponent is irrelevant; this happens to whomever they happen to be playing that night.  And if you've ever watched any basketball at all, and don't have a feeling that, at least in garbage time, the officials are ignoring many things due to a desire to just let the game move on, then you're not paying much attention.  Not that you'll take my opinion for anything, but I believe that something similar eventually happens in JCU's games.  The refs sense, rightly or wrongly, that the fans are tired of hearing so many whistles.  So, they blow them less.  It's what they do.

This season, in JCU's ten games, they've commited 202 fouls to their opponents 195.  Nearly a wash.  My contention, and I stand by it, is that above and beyond the 202 fouls that JCU has been called for they commit at least two or three times that many more which are either missed (even six eyes can't be everywhere at once) or ignored (they just just tired of blowing the whistles).  Certainly their opponents have commited, but not been called for, more than that 195.  But they don't get away with nearly as much because they simply aren't doing as much.

There are no numbers to support this contention.  But basketball, and all sports, are not simply numbers.  I'd suggest seeing JCU play.  I have, several times, hence my feelings.
 

I think this is the case for most physical teams.  Because they play as physical as they do, there's a lot more contact... and, generally, the whistle would be blowing a LOT if they called it really tight. 

Most refs like to let the game have some flow, so they'll let some things go... and suddenly, fouls that would be called under other situations just aren't being called.

[David Collinge]

Another bitterly disappointing loss today for OWU, falling to Maryville (TN) 84-77.  The Bishops got behind early, down 21-9 with just less than 7 minutes gone in the game.  Then they caught fire and finished out the half on a 34-10 blitz, extending their lead to 14 early in the second period.  And then Maryville came alive, and whittled down their deficit until it vanished with 3:59 left.  OWU responded with a layup to regain the lead, but a three-pointer on their next possession gave the Scots the lead for good.  OWU had no success playing catch-up down the stretch, as their long-range shooting remained woeful (5/22 today, 23%) and Murvul refused to miss from the free throw line (missing just twice on the afternoon--the live stats reset for the next game in Otterbein's Smokey Ballenger Classic while I was typing this, so I don't have the final figures!)  

NCAC record: 33-27.

[wally_wabash]

If our game officials are ruling based on some misplaced obligation to the fans or some misguided idea that we're on some kind of time limit rather than calling the game based on the rules, then we have far, far bigger problems than whether or not Wooster can deal with JCU's press.  Are you saying that our games aren't being officiated from an unbiased point of objectivity, but rather the games are being officiated from a point of making sure the fans get their $8 worth and they get it in under 2 hours? 

You've said that you think JCU has committed somewhere between 400-600 fouls this season.  Again, say it out loud.  It's absolutely absurd.  There's no way that JCU has made a deal with the devil and is getting 3 for 1 on their fouls.  It just doesn't work that way...and I need not see JCU play to know better. 

[Bash Brother 2000]

Thank you Wabco!!!  I was a day ahead of myself.   

Bash Brother ... Franklin game is tomorrow night, December 29 at 7:30 PM at Franklin.  Franklin always seems to have "soccer-esk" hooligan type fans (whether football or basketball) ... suspect there is some corralation with SAT scores.  In any event ... close enough to Indy ... hope we have a bunch of supporters to help out the start of Phase II of the season ...

and then there is Woo on Saturday, Jan 8.  The students are not back yet.  Should be a great game ... Wabash will need our "A" game and our "A" fan support.  Urge all (Woo and Wabash) who want to see a (hopefully) highly contested event  between two fine teams lead/guided by two great coaches. Be there or be square!  (I do not know if there is video.  Hope so.)

Let's go Little Giants tonight in Franklin, IN.  We're on a roll.  Keep it simple and protect the ball. 

[wally_wabash]

Just watched the first half of this Wooster/JCU game.  I would rate the officiating as "fair", which is exactly what you want.  I don't see JCU mugging people and getting away with it.  I don't see the game officials being pressured by anybody to call this game one way or another.  Just a basketball game...with basketball refs.  Same as it always is.  

Flow of the game be damned, the game officials are blowing whistles nearly every trip up the floor in the second half.  Guess these guys are more concerned about, you know, the rules than they are about the pace of play.  And good for them.  I'm not seeing anything here that substantiates any of the Booster's claims about how JCU games go.

[woosterbooster]

Golly gee, Wally, did you watch a whole Wooster game just in an attempt to prove me wrong?  Sorry I put you to so much trouble.  If you'd just take my word for things, you might have had a more enjoyable and even constructive evening.

You're actually not far off on your rating of the officials in the first half.  Wooster had no problem with JCU's press, breaking it with long passes.  This kept the game in the open court, JCU's half-court defense never got settled, and the Scots made both lots of threes and layups.  If it wasn't for one stretch of five or six turnovers they would have had a double-digit lead at the break.

The second half is where your vision seems to have gone awry.  Bad streaming connection?  Glasses fall off?  Apparently you couldn't see who all those fouls were being called on.  Not the aggressive OAC team, who played a very physical half court man-to-man, but the Scots, who seemed to get whistled for allowing themselves to be pushed around.  Fair, you say?  Bull****.

And I'll say this again, just for you, my lovable Hoosier.  JCU, this season, has commited between 400-600 fouls.  Probably more.

Let me do the math for you, in order to save your stamina for your inevitable sarcastic retort:

400/10 = 40     600/10 = 60  That means I'm saying that JCU commits  between 40-60 fouls a game.
202/10 = 20.2 JCU has been called for 20.2 fouls per game.

Bottom line is that I'm contending that JCU commits between 20-40 fouls per game that are not called.  Funny, I'd say that out loud anywhere, even in a crowded gymnasium.  No one would panic, few with any knowledge of the game would even dispute it.  I think, actually, that I'm being quite generous to JCU with these numbers.  I'm quite sure that even a team that doesn't hold, push, and reach as much as they do (such as Wooster or Wabash, even) commits at least 20 more fouls/game than are whistled on them.

That's the way the game is, Wally.  Always was, and always will be.  And this game went nearly exactly as I predicted it would.  JCU picked up the physical play in the second half.  They got away with a lot.  Just not enough, on this occasion, to win.

[wooscotsfan]

Back from Timken where I watched Wooster notch a convincing 89-76 win over a scrappy John Carroll team.

Wooster lost the turnover stats but they took care of the ball and only had 15 turnovers total which is solid against a pressure team like JCU.

Scots outshot JCU 53% to 36%, outrebounded the Blue Streaks 43 to 29 and passed well with 18 assists compared to only 11 for JCU.

Wooster's depth and balance won this game as they had 4 players in double figures and JCU could not counter that offensive punch.  Ian Franks was nearly unstoppable with 28 points, Justin Hallowell had a great night with 19 points, Balch got back in the offense with 16 points and Josh Claytor was very effective inside with 13 points.  Claytor got his last 4 points in the last 6 minutes of the game with a bandage over his eye after taking a hit from a JCU player in the lane.  Claytor was key because Wickliffe fouled out.

Important in-region win for the Scots tonight and it may help their strength rating if JCU finishes strong in the OAC.

Wooster is now 10-0 and 4-0 NCAC   Next up is Wilmington at home tomorrow.  The Quakers lost to Spalding 70-66 in the opening game of the tourney tonight.

[wooscotsfan]

On the post game show, Coach Moore mentioned how Wooster really wanted this win over JCU and he cautioned against an emotional letdown tomorrow vs. Wilmington.

BTW, I passed JCU's two minivans on I-71 a little while ago as they are obviously commuting to the Mose Hole.

[wally_wabash]

- If every team, in your estimation, is getting 20 free fouls every single game, then maybe the problem isn't the game officials, but rather your own perception of what a foul actually is.  Basketball, like it or not, is a contact sport.  Any and all contact isn't necessarily a foul.  I'm not sure you get that part.    

- If Wooster constantly finds themselves on the bad end of the stick when they play a team that bodies up on them, then maybe they shouldn't let themselves get shoved around.  Be tougher.  But this really isn't the issue because based on what I've seen of Wooster games, they give just as good as they get.  If JCU manhandles the Wooster post players, it's a crime against humanity.  If Bryan Nelson does the same thing to everybody for four years, he's an all time great.  Can't have it both ways.  

That's the way the game is, Wally.  Always was, and always will be.  

This is actually exactly the point that I've been trying to make.  For a long time now.  These game officials that you bang on after each and every Wooster game (or in tonight's case, before the game...possibly a first for you), call these games exactly the same way every single time.  That's the way the game is and that's the way it will be.  You said so yourself.  So if you know that this how it's gonna be and that this is how the game is played, then why in blue hell do I have to listen to you come in here and bellyache every single year about this?  If Wooster wins, the refs were bad but not that bad.  If Wooster loses, they flat out got snowed.  It's the same ridiculous nonsense every single season.  Why?  Why when you know how these games are going to be called?  

[ScotsFan]

then why in blue hell do I have to listen to you come in here and bellyache every single year about this?

Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to read his posts or even respond to them wallyworld???       

You don't like what WooBoo has to say, ignore it!  Trust me, I find things much more enjoyable on this board since I started ignoring most of what you post! 

Besides, we all have to listen to you bellyache over everyting non-Wabash related so what's the difference???