MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[woosterbooster]

In looking back, since the 1990's, I found four results for Wooster against D1 teams:

1991-92: Lost to Akron, 80-71
1996-97: Lost to Akron, 72-55
1997-98: Lost to Harvard, 77-61
1998-99: Lost to Akron, 82-61

All of the above games were, of course, at the D1 school.  If I'm remembering correctly, they also played and lost a preseason exhibition at Akron the year after Brian Nelson graduated (it was Tom Port's first game, and I remember being impressed by his athleticism and skills), which would have been the 2003-04 season.  I would have liked to have seen them play an Akron-like D1 school during Nelson's senior year, mostly just to have seen how he himself would have fared.

[wooscotsfan]

Wooster Booster - since you brought up the Scots results against Akron, let's give Coach Al Van Wie's teams some credit!  We beat Akron twice in the late 1970's!

1977-78  Wooster went 21-6 that season
Played Akron at Wooster and won 92-85 in OT

1978-79  Wooster went 22-6 that season
Played Akron at Akron and won 61-47

After those two years, I believe that Akron stopped scheduling Wooster because the embarassment was too great! 

[Li'l Giant]

I'm with Wally on this one. My law school alma mater is a D-II team that played the University of Texas this year to the tune of a 113-49 thrashing. Their next game they played New Mexico State and fared better, only losing 72-45. I don't know what the point of it is. I hope it was a lot of money but I doubt it. Do these players get something out of saying to their kids someday "I played against D-I players once."

Reminds me of Patton and shoveling in Louisiana.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Bear in mind that many d3-d1 games are NOT total blow-outs (in fact, most years d3 WINS 1 or 2 of them).

IWU played national runner-up Illinois in an exhibition.  The game was VERY close right up to the final few minutes.  According to the box score, at least, Adam Dauksas thoroughly out-played Big Ten POY Dee Brown - think he won't be telling his grandkids about THAT game!  DC is right that it is about the money (USUALLY far more than $5,000!), but it is also about the challenge (could I have played with these guys?) and the thrill (in many such matchups they will play in front of nearly as many spectators as the rest of their season combined!).

[David Collinge]

DC is right that it is about the money [...]

DC is ALWAYS right, of course 8), but he hasn't weighed in on this particular subject.  Several people have expressed the opinion you refer to, and I believe sac was first to do so here.

I don't know why D3 teams play lower-division teams; maybe for money, maybe for thrill.  I never played the game or managed an athletic department, so I'm ill-informed.  I don't particularly like it, though.  I consider myself to be in the Coach C camp, that D3 teams are prostituting themselves when they do so.

I have to think that Adam Dauskas' grandchildren are going to say, "who's Dee Brown?"  Then after a while they'll say "oh jeez, here he goes with that Dee Brown story again."

I think it's more likely that a player will reminisce 60 years later about how he played against someone who became famous in some other way (like became president, or invented something, or became a multimillionaire), and that person is more likely to have played for Denison than Akron, IMHO.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Sorry, David, it was sac who responded "$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $".  But you HoFers all look the same to us peons!

I suppose you're right about Adam's grandkids (unless, of course, Dee ends up on the NBA top-50 lists!), but Adam can at least brag to his fellow old-farts when he reaches that status!

[smedindy]

Ypsi - I disagree about the spectators. In many of the contests the D-1 team in question draws in the low thousands, if that. Akron didn't have 3,000 people against Denison, and I'm sure the gym felt empty.

Meanwhile, you get a Wabash / Wooster game at Chadwick and the place is packed and electric. Heck, even 800 people for a Denison game would feel electric in Chadwick.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Ypsi - I disagree about the spectators. In many of the contests the D-1 team in question draws in the low thousands, if that. Akron didn't have 3,000 people against Denison, and I'm sure the gym felt empty.

Meanwhile, you get a Wabash / Wooster game at Chadwick and the place is packed and electric. Heck, even 800 people for a Denison game would feel electric in Chadwick.

Smed, I don't disagree with your point (a semi-packed d3 gym may generate much more enthusiasm than a d1 gym watching what most assume is a ho-hum game), but I do disagree with your numbers.  At Wabash you probably got (fairly) nearly as spoiled as I did at IWU - for MANY d3 schools, 300 is a BIG crowd.  And not all d1 crowds are Akron, where 3,000 is no doubt big.

If there were 15,000 at UI (didn't check the numbers, but don't trust 'em anyway!), that is 6 times the usual IWU turnout, though only 4 times the BIG game numbers, and probably little more loud or 'impressive'.  If IWU played a game at Akron, they would probably be very UNimpressed with the numbers or enthusiasm.  But imagine a Eureka at UI (or an Earlham at IU) - however tepid the enthusiasm might be, the sheer number of fans WOULD indeed approximate the rest of the season combined.

While sac is correct that the MAIN motivation in most cases is money, challenge and thrill should not be underestimated.

[Li'l Giant]

I can understand the players thinking "can I hang?" when they find out that they're playing Akron or Texas or whoever. But that is after the matchups are scheduled. Does that really play into the actual decision behind the scheduling of those games?

[Gregory Sager]

IWU played national runner-up Illinois in an exhibition.  The game was VERY close right up to the final few minutes.

Whoa ... easy there, big fella. The game was tied at 41-41 with 14:37 left, at which point the Illini went on a big run and built up a 63-48 lead with eight minutes and change remaining, and ended up with an eventual 22-point victory, 82-60. (Here's the Illini press release: http://fightingillini.collegesports.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/110405aab.html.) Your Titans made an outstanding showing that night, but let's not gild the lily, Chuck.

And I think that DC hit it on the head with his "Who's Dee Brown?" retort. Dee Brown's a fine ballplayer, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that NBA-Top-50-list thing coming to pass.

[smedindy]

Ypsi -

The majority of D-1 schools play in small-ish arenas. 15 conferences had average attendance under 3,000 - including the West Coast Conference with Gonzaga.

There were 27 D-1 schools that had average attendance UNDER 1,000 - with Colgate and St. Francis (NY) the bottom.

I wonder if you ask Texas-Dallas about their D-1 experience. They played two games at Chadwick with a packed house. The IWU fans came over and even watched the consolation game they were in (for the most part) and then those players hung around and watched 1,200 people cheer IWU and Wabash.

Then they played a D-1 school at Texas-Arlington and the attendance was 568.

So even if you only get 400 to 500 a game - if you get just 500 to 1000 at a D-1 school it's really no big whoopde.

[woosterbooster]

wooscotsfan -

I certainly didn't (and don't) mean to discredit those Wooster teams from the seventies.  I did mention that I just didn't bother to look back so far for results.

Was Akron a D-1 school back then, and did D1 actually exist at that time?  I can't remember.  When I was in school (long time ago, Bradley University late sixties) it was broken down quite differently, but I can't remember how, or when things changed.

[Titan Q]

Here are some photos from the IWU vs Illinois exhibition game this year on November 3...

http://www.iwuhoops.com/ILLINI.HTM


While I am not in that "Coach C camp" that DC refers to (I generally like it when D3 teams get the chance to play D1's in the right situation - I'm not in favor of a game that's going to be a 50 point blowout), I will concede that as far as attendance and atmosphere, this game was the exception, and not the rule, as far as D1 vs D3 matchups go.  There were 16,000+ people at Assembly Hall...it was an experience I wouldn't trade for anything as a Titan fan and I know our players wouldn't either.  It was also a competitive game...from a competitive standpoint, one that compares favorably to what Illinois has done in some of their D1 games so far this year through their 9-0 start. 

Illinois halftime/final score margins...

Illinois Wesleyan: +6/+22
South Dakota State: +14/+25
Texas Southern: +16/+24
Rutgers: +12/+20
Arkansas-Little Rock: +4/+26

IWU also got some really nice exposure from the game, like this Peoria Journal Star (a paper that normally doesn't cover IWU) piece...

http://www.pjstar.com/stories/110405/BIL_B81G6MPD.077.shtml

Again, I concede that that's not the norm in most D1 vs D3 games.  That is why I say it has to be the "right situation."  For example, I would not be in favor of IWU playing an exhibition vs Illinois next season...without Adam Dauksas and Keelan Amelianovich (guys who could be starting for a lot of D1's), it just wouldn't be competitive.

[smedindy]

Back in the day, they had basically a "University" division and a "College" division. I don't know about Akron, per se, but up until the mid 70's Wabash was in a conference with Butler, Evansville, and Valpo.

Of course, speaking of D-1 trips, the immortal (hah!) Snowy Simpson had Wabash start the season with Eastern Illinois, Ball State,  Houston, Arkansas and UTEP in 73-74 (they beat Eastern Illinois and went 7-18 that year) and in 74-75 played Miami (Ohio), New Orleans, Centenary (LA), Eastern Illinois and Cincinnati on its way to 4-22.

I just looked and Akron was probably D-2 at the time.

[whoyawitt]

what will wooster do to stop dan russ and the rest of the witt frontcourt?  my only suggestion would be to put in the woo assistant coach.  he's got good size and he is usually out on the floor for half the game anyway.