MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[bufordscot]

'bama-Auburn is a state (or at most, regional) killer rivalry; UM-OSU is a national rivalry.  I'd say that on a national level the only comparison would be Army-Navy (back when they were good).  Or, perhaps, for a few years (but long gone now), Oklahoma-Nebraska.

Army/Navy is still the best college football rivalry. Alabama/Auburn is an intrastate rivalry. OSU/Michigan is a regional rivalry (no, Chuck, it's not national -- nobody in Montana or Georgia gives a rip about the Wolverines and the Buckeyes). Army/Navy is truly international, because just about every grunt and swabbie across the globe takes time out from his or her duties to watch or listen to the game on the Armed Forces Network. The game is the classic manifestation of the age-old rivalry between the two services that flares up every time a sergeant crosses paths with a petty officer in a bar in some remote corner of the planet. It's also a true "throw out the records" rivalry, since it matters not one whit whether both teams are good, both teams are bad, or one team's up while the other team's down.

Read John Feinstein's excellent A Civil War, and you'll understand why there really is no other rivalry in sports quite like Army/Navy. It's completely unique. The hatred is as fierce and white-hot as any rivalry anywhere (for one week a year at the U.S. Military Academy and the U.S. Naval Academy, and one week only, it's permissible to answer a direct order with "Beat Navy!" or "Beat Army!" instead of "Yes, sir!" or "Yes, ma'am!"), and because both the service academies and the services as a whole are national institutions it's a rivalry that knows no state or regional boundaries. The pageantry of the servicemen and -women in full uniform filling out their sections of the stadium is pretty amazing.

But the best part of the game is the ending. No matter who wins, and no matter how badly they beat each others' brains out, at the end of the game the players from both sides intermingle in front of the Navy section of the stadium and stand at attention as "Anchors Aweigh" is played by the Navy band, and then both teams walk over to the Army section and stand at attention as the USMA Alma Mater is played by the Army band.

There's a reason for this closing ritual, and it's a big part of why this rivalry goes beyond Alabama/Auburn, USC/UCLA, Ohio State/Michigan, and all the rest: Every member of the Corps of Cadets and the Corps of Midshipmen knows that, no matter how much he or she hates the other side, those rivals will become brothers-in-arms upon graduation. They already have a common bond, because they know that few college students besides those at the other academy truly understand just how rigorous and grueling those four years really are for them from both a mental and a physical standpoint. But when you know that the people on the other sideline will be standing with you on the firing line as fellow officers when the country calls you to duty, it puts a different spin on the rivalry than you see at other places. The hatred is tempered with a mutual respect and a commonality of larger purpose that you just don't see in the more frivolous and ephemeral world of intercollegiate sports outside of the service academies.

Worth repeating

[WoosterFAN]

I was just making my picks on the Pick 'em Board...Yes, I did some research this time instead of throwing darts.

First, Wooster has the best website by far of the NCAC schools.  The links to other schools is key.  No other website I can find has that.

But looking at the NCAC standings right now before Holiday tourney's and vegas/CA/TX trips:

Only half of the NCAC out scores its opponents.
Only half of the NCAC has a winning record...Only 3 teams more than one game over .500.   Wabash is outscores its opponets but has 2-5 record?

Eight teams have had losing streaks of more than 3 games and two started the season 0-4 and one team started 0-5.  Denison has a 5 game losing streak after starting 1-1.

Has the NCAC ever been this bad?

Do you Steve Moore saw the writing on the wall and the relative weakness of NCAC is the reason for the tough schedule this year?  The NCAC is normally weak year and year out but this year it is particularly weak.

[Li'l Giant]

Wabash is outscores its opponets but has 2-5 record

We really need a green and puking smiley-face.

[WoosterFAN]

Pat - Was it my oversite or was there a D3 Hoops Pre-season All American Team this year?  If you had one, I missed it.

[sac]

First, Wooster has the best website by far of the NCAC schools.  The links to other schools is key.  No other website I can find has that.

Has the NCAC ever been this bad?

I'm not sure if your aware but the NCAC has a website

http://northcoast.org/mb/mb.html

I think you'll find your answer to your question if you poke around a little.

Its been my experience that good coaches know when they'll have a good team and they'll schedule a few tougher challenges that year.  I've always thought Wooster's out of conference schedule's were on the higher end of competitiveness every year anyway.

[WooMix]

Pat - Was it my oversite or was there a D3 Hoops Pre-season All American Team this year?  If you had one, I missed it.

Sorry, I am not Pat but here is what you are looking for:

http://d3hoops.com/tow/menpreallam07.htm

http://d3hoops.com/tow/wompreallam07.htm

[wally_wabash]

Wooster is never going to get a stiff challenge from the rest of the NCAC.  Every year it seems that we all say that this is the year a couple of other teams are going to jump up and give Wooster and Witt a run and it never pans out.  Currently, the reality is that Wooster and Witt are head and shoulders above the rest of the conference and the rest of the conference schedule for those two is essentially filler between Christmas and the tournament.

Upcoming schedule for Wabash....Saturday Wabash travels to Denison.  On the surface, it's a game Wabash should probably win, but who knows how the inexperienced LGs will play on the road.  Their first couple of trips this season (to Depauw and Oberlin) haven't panned out well.  Then Wabash plays a single game at Franklin on the 18th before a New Year's Eve-ish tournament at Frankln with Alma and Lakeland.  Tough road stretch for Wabash before we flip the calendars over.  It should be a good chance for Wabash to grow up quite a bit heading into the conference season. 

[David Collinge]

For everyone crying about the officials, I want you all to be well aware of the fact that each and everyone of you has the opportunity to officiate.  With that being said, I don't think too many of you will be jumping in line for that gig.   

This is precisely the reason I try to avoid criticizing the officials.  I'm thankful we have people willing to do the job.  Maybe they're not the greatest officials in the world, but they're a heck of a lot better than I'd be!

Has the NCAC ever been this bad?

And yet, just yesterday I noticed that three of the top 15 teams in the Massey ratings are NCAC teams (Wooster #2, Witt #14, OWU #15).  But you have to page down quite a long way to reach the #4 NCAC team (Kenyon at #165).

First, Wooster has the best website by far of the NCAC schools. 

Wooster's website is outstanding.  Wittenberg's website is very good as well.  I think all of the NCAC schools have better websites than a lot of schools; the most recent example of a truly bad athletics webpage that I came across is Aurora.  As in many, many areas, I think we have an above-average conference that we can be rightly proud of.

Army/Navy is still the best college football rivalry.

I agree with this, but

OSU/Michigan is a regional rivalry (no, Chuck, it's not national -- nobody in Montana or Georgia gives a rip about the Wolverines and the Buckeyes).

That's an overstatement.  I've spent a fair amount of time in Montana, and also in the south (not Georgia, but an even worse place--Alabama), and in both places there is a decent level of interest in OSU/Michigan, beyond the general level of interest you'd expect in an "important" game.  That's due in part to the fact that both are tremendously large universities with graduates all around the world.  I can't think of anywhere in America where I have been more than a casual visitor and not run into Michigan alumni and/or fans.

Anyway, you can have great football rivalries that have little or no "national interest."  Harvard/Yale, Stanford/Cal, Lafayette/Lehigh, Wabash/DePauw, Montana/Montana State come to mind.  And I know everyone is waiting with bated breath for the Central Michigan/Middle Tennessee State showdown in the Motor City Bowl! 

[Mr. Ypsi]

It's true that UM has more living alumni than any other school (or so they claim in my 'could we see some of your alumnus money' mailings!).

And OSU may be #2 (or at least must be top 5).

Two brief anecdotes:

I was once in a sports bar in South Dakota (close enough to Montana?) for the UM-OSU game - EVERYBODY was watching, and most had on UM or OSU sweatshirts.

The last time that I was in a sports bar during the Army-Navy game (either 2003 or 04), they were watching something else and refused my request to switch to Army-Navy.

Greg, I loved your depiction of the rituals involved in A-N, but have you checked the TV ratings for Army-Navy vs. Ohio State-Michigan for the last few years?

[pennstghs]

i didnt know this was the discussion board for division 1 football? discussing scUM on here makes me sick haha

[David Collinge]

Allegheny's Ryan Hollihan is the NCAC Player of the Week for his back-to-back double-doubles, one of which was instrumental in the Gators' upset of Ohio Wesleyan.  Hollihan is a 6'8" sophomore.  Congratulations to Ryan! 

It looks like the Conference Office is liking the big men this season; two of the PotW's this year have been 6'8" (Borchers was the other, last week), and the other two were 6'6" (Yelvington and Vandervaart).  Where's the love for the pee-wee guards? 

[Blue Russian]

This was a problem in the 1st half.  I mean Witt had 4 trips in a row where Borchers went to the line for fouls that were called against Wooster's defenders for trying to hold their ground as Borchers backed them down.  From what I could tell, they were touch fouls at best.  The fouls were being called before Borchers was even shooting?!  I didn't really notice this as much in the 2nd half.  I think it was more of a fact that Wooster's defenders felt they had to lay off down low resulting in easy bunnies for Witt's post players.  I just don't like to see the referees feel like people came to the game to watch them which is the sense I got from this officiating crew.  As I said before, the officiating was equally poor for both sides.  I just felt like they were calling far too many silly touch fouls and as a result, didn't allow the game to flow at all.[/color]





  Final stats show both teams were called for 19 fouls. Both teams made exactly 16 foul shots, Wooster had 21 attempts and Witt 20. Hard to believe it was this close with all the recent comments. By the way, Borchers was only at the line 8 times, only 3 more than Vandervaart......maybe not so far our of line as perceived.[/color]

[woosterbooster]

Final stats show both teams were called for 19 fouls. Both teams made exactly 16 foul shots, Wooster had 21 attempts and Witt 20. Hard to believe it was this close with all the recent comments. By the way, Borchers was only at the line 8 times, only 3 more than Vandervaart......maybe not so far our of line as perceived.

I'd feel a lot better if you could at least admit the possibility that although the fouls came out about even that those called on one team could have been very marginal touch fouls while those on the other weren't, and many other fouls on that team could have been called but weren't.  I've had a few drinks, and I know that last sentence is reasonably convuluted, but so is your reasoning when you claim that the game was called fairly because the foul count was close.

[kiltedbryan]

Wooster Daily Record preview article of this weekend's WQKT/Steve Smith Holiday Hoops Classic, which will include many area high school teams in addition to the Wooster-Cederville game:


http://www.the-daily-record.com/news/article/1161822

[Gregory Sager]

That's an overstatement.  I've spent a fair amount of time in Montana, and also in the south (not Georgia, but an even worse place--Alabama), and in both places there is a decent level of interest in OSU/Michigan, beyond the general level of interest you'd expect in an "important" game.  That's due in part to the fact that both are tremendously large universities with graduates all around the world.  I can't think of anywhere in America where I have been more than a casual visitor and not run into Michigan alumni and/or fans.

Agreed. I was exaggerating for effect. Yes, I'm well aware that the brobdignagian sizes of the Michigan and Ohio State student bodies means that they have plenty of alumni scattered everywhere. But that doesn't mean that the rivalry takes on the life-or-death fervor elsewhere that it takes on within a 400-mile radius of Toledo. Fact is, it doesn't. And that's my point.

Greg, I loved your depiction of the rituals involved in A-N, but have you checked the TV ratings for Army-Navy vs. Ohio State-Michigan for the last few years?

No. Don't care to. Doesn't matter. If we measured the intensity and the excellence of a rivalry by public consciousness, media attention, and # of eyeballs glued to television sets, then Hope/Calvin, Wittenberg/Wooster, Amherst/Williams, DePauw/Wabash, Hardin-Simmons/McMurry, Cortland State/Ithaca, etc., wouldn't even be blips on the radar.