MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[pennstghs]

we could settle this whole karma issue by employing this method-anytime ur karma is reduced by an individual there must be an accompanying explanation haha.

BIG games today-i almost called off work to make the wittenberg-oberlin and wooster-denison double dip but decided that id make better time at work

[Henry Steele]

Does anyone know how much money NCAC coaches make? I mean, does Steve Moore or Bill Brown make a lot more $$ than the guy at Hiram or Denison?

Are resources close to being equal in this league? I see some teams have four assistant coaches, others have one or two.

How can one team be so much better than the other teams? Do they have lesser academic requirements, or is their coach just so much smarter than everyone else?

Inquiring minds want to know..........

[TigerFan_1973]

I definitely believe it hurts the NCAC in the NCAA's and the bids (other than the AQ) received. Not to mention preparation for tougher tournament opponents.

I'd like to think I'm not trying to start an argument, but maybe I am introducing a debating point here.

Isn't the NCAC by definition not a powerhouse Div III (no, that's not an oxymoron) conference?

Wittenberg has "deemphasized" athletics at least twice during my time as a fan.  One time cost them a great football coach at the very time he was president of the American Football Coaches Association.  It may be the only time the president of the association was not an active coach.

I think it is a good thing that from time to time good athletes fail to get into a good school and that sports does not become the tail not wagging the dog.  I rather enjoy tuning in (I'm not sure you "tune in" on the Internet  ) to the Witt radio network when most people in Ohio are watching Ohio State on ABC.

When I was a kid, Wittenberg had a guy who "forgot" to register for classes.  They were 9-0 that year and offered to forfeit all their games.  One school, who may now be in the NCAC, refused to accept the forfeit, figuring that one offensive tackle couldn't make that much difference in a game that ended 63-0.  I though that showed some class on the other team's part.

TF_1973

[TigerFan_1973]

Does anyone know how much money NCAC coaches make? I mean, does Steve Moore or Bill Brown make a lot more $$ than the guy at Hiram or Denison?

Are resources close to being equal in this league? I see some teams have four assistant coaches, others have one or two.

How can one team be so much better than the other teams? Do they have lesser academic requirements, or is their coach just so much smarter than everyone else?

Inquiring minds want to know..........

Apparently, we both posted at the same time without seeing each other's posts.

The James Cooper thing might indicate different standards between Witt and Wooster but I know next to nothing about that whole thing except for what was in the papers.

If you are looking for a commonality with Bill Brown and Steve Moore, it's Wittenberg.

Wittenberg has had a long line of great coaches.  In basketball alone, the line reads Ray Mears (left Witt for Tennessee), Eldon Miller (Western Michigan and Ohio State), Bobby Hamilton (Navy), Larry Hunter (Ohio U. and Western Carolina), and Bill Brown. 

Some teams do have more assistant coaches but I believe that you will find that some will be volunteers. 

I don't know what coaches make, but I know that being employed at Wittenberg is considered a very good job in Springfield, at least by us "townies."

I don't think that D3 coaches are in it for money.  I think that to be able to spend 20 or 30 years at one D3 school, as some of the older coaches have done, could be a very nice life.  But, it wouldn't be about big money.  The last I knew a fringe benefit of working at Witt was free tuition for your kids, which sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Tf_1973

[David Collinge]

Does anyone know how much money NCAC coaches make? I mean, does Steve Moore or Bill Brown make a lot more $$ than the guy at Hiram or Denison?

Are resources close to being equal in this league? I see some teams have four assistant coaches, others have one or two.

How can one team be so much better than the other teams? Do they have lesser academic requirements, or is their coach just so much smarter than everyone else?

Inquiring minds want to know..........

I don't understand why some people see successful college athletics programs and immediately suspect "lesser academic requirements."  Here's news: some smart kids can play hoops, too.  Both Kyle Witucky and Matt Schlingman finished at or very near the top of their classes academically at Wooster, and they were pretty good players too.  I'm sure every team in the league can tell a similar story, and every school in this league is highly selective.  Outside the NCAC, look at the success a school like Amherst has at basketball.  Even if they did relax their admissions standards to admit good basketball players (which I doubt), that'd just mean they had 1400 SATs instead of 1500s.  Look at the current men's top 25, which includes names like NYU, Johns Hopkins, Wheaton, Brandeis, and Washington U., and tell me about "lesser academic requirements."

I'm sure that Wooster and Wittenberg invest more resources in their basketball teams than the other schools do, just as Wabash spends on football, Kenyon on swimming, etc.  They have more and better-qualified assistants, better facilities, etc.  But it's not like Steve Moore is getting rich coaching hoops at Wooster.  I think the main reason that Wooster and Wittenberg dominate men's hoops year after year is that success breeds success.  They get to recruit the kids who are pretty good players but not quite good enough to get decent scholarships, kids who want to get a good education and don't want to sit on the end of the bench at some D2 or lower-echelon D1 school.  Plus there are invariably kids who played for winning high school programs, and they like to win.  If they go to Wooster or Wittenberg, they're going to win; if they go to Hiram, probably they won't win much.  They get the top quality (for small colleges) coaching and facilities, the chance to be a BMOC, and the opportunity to play in front of decent crowds instead of the 100 or so folks that probably show up for a typical Wednesday game at Oberlin or Kenyon.  It's got to be a pretty attractive package for the type of kid that plays D3 ball.

[David Collinge]

The James Cooper thing might indicate different standards between Witt and Wooster but I know next to nothing about that whole thing except for what was in the papers.

I sincerely wish that this subject would go away and never come back.  It's unfair to James Cooper for us to speculate about his academic profile and personal decision without any hard facts to base it on, and then to blow it up into some indicia of how Wooster and Wittenberg compare to each other academically.  The fact that such speculation made it into the newspaper makes it that much worse in my opinion.  The plain fact is that Wooster and Wittenberg are very, very similar academically, and each school makes individual admissions decisions based on many factors.  Some students will apply to both and be admitted by only one.  It doesn't reflect on the student or the institutions when that happens.

I don't know what James' individual situation was (it has been reported in a number of different and inconsistent ways), but primarily I think it is none of our business why he decided to go to Wooster.

[division3hoops]

While we are talking about Karma, or were rather, I honestly had posted 2 times on this website and my karma went down.  I don't think I posted anything controversial in the least.  I also do not understand why this happens.  I was not aware that posts could be pulled either.  Seems I have a lot to learn.

So Wooster takes on Denison today.  I guess they will have to do it without Vandervaart.  Sources have told me that there is a good chance he will not be playing this evening due to the injury he sustained in the Mose Hole tournament...  

[division3hoops]

David -
I completely and utterly agree with you.  We have no facts about Cooper's academic standings or grades.  This is completely unfair to him and I also find it ridiculous that it was mentioned in the paper.  And somehow the "class" issue keeps coming up here. 
I remember playing basketball when I was in college and how much time went into it.  When most other students have between the hours of 3-6 to work on their studies, these athletes are all in the gym: practicing, lifting, watching films.  Weekends are spent on a bus or at team meals and shoot arounds all day long.  It is no doubt a huge committment, but thank God for it because what else would we have to do if we didn't have d3hoops to post on

I also agree that success breeds success.  Look at top div 1 basketball teams like Duke and UNC, even Ohio State.  These kids want to WIN, and what better way to do that than to go to a school that has a winning record every year.
That is the good thing about both Wittenberg and Wooster.  They have winning records and do well every year.  Every kid that is on these two teams was probably one of the best, if not the best player at their highschool.  All of them are good.  I also believe that a lot of athletes want to play, not just sit on the end of the bench of a good team.  That's what so great about div 3 is that guys who probably wouldn't play in division 1, get the chance to make a name for themselves.  Division 3 schools are typically much smaller schools and the competition is not as great.  If you are a great player but maybe not good enough to play division 1, one of the best schools in division 3 looks like a good option.

[Li'l Giant]

I don't understand why some people see successful college athletics programs and immediately suspect "lesser academic requirements."  Here's news: some smart kids can play hoops, too.

I don't understand this either. It is pervasive in our society. I see it on every message board I post on at every level of sports and from just about everyone I know.

I sincerely wish that this subject would go away and never come back.  It's unfair to James Cooper for us to speculate about his academic profile and personal decision without any hard facts to base it on, and then to blow it up into some indicia of how Wooster and Wittenberg compare to each other academically.

I agree with you on this, too, DC. It's pretty bad to speculate like has so oft been the case. It was a perplexing episode to watch as an outsider to the Witt/Woo rivalry.

[sac]

To add to the "what makes a school succesfull" debate.

Facilites can have a big influence on a school's athletic success.  In the 1970's Hope was lagging way behind the rest of the MIAA.  In 1978 Hope built an on campus wellness building complete with 3 hoops courts, indoor track, weight training, and swimming pool.  Basically before that Hope had an old gym that literally collapsed one day.

Since then Hope has won the all-sport trophy nearly every year except for may a half dozen.   That one building drastically changed Hope's athletic fortunes.  When I look around the MIAA its clear he who has the best facilites usually wins.

I'd rank the MIAA

1. Hope
2. Albion
3. Calvin
4. Alma
5. Kzoo
6. Adrian
7. Olivet......WAY behind
...........have never been to Tri-State, and I should note 4-6 are very close and there's alittle gap between 3 and 4.  1,2,3 are pretty close as well.   Calvin will probably move to #1 when their new facility is completed in the next couple years.  This is pretty close to how the all-sports award ends up every year with the exception Calvin is #2.


Also I think any school that has an athletic culture, ie a stong physical education program and department can attract better athletes for sports.  Every Hope student takes a Freshman PE class and it has a great influence on the overall athletic culture of the school.  I was immediately struck by how many people use and how busy Hope's on campus facility is on a regular basis.

I think if you looked around D3 most of the most succesfull schools in a particular conference probably have the best faciilities overall.

[Henry Steele]

OK, say there is a really good high school player in Ohio; both the kid's parents went to Denison (this is hypothetical, not a real case), but, all things equal, the kid would like to play at Denison.

He is a superior student and a basketball player; he just missed out on scholarship to Patriot League school.

Now, the family doesn't have much money........they'll have to dig deep to send the kid to college. My question is this: Do any of the NCAC schools give better financial aid packages than others, or are the rules so strict that all the packages would approximately be the same?

Or do the winning teams win because their adminsitrations are more flexible in the flexible aid they offer?

Just wondering why some teams always win more than others, whether there are advantages certain teams have.

[David Collinge]

OK, say there is a really good high school player in Ohio; both the kid's parents went to Denison (this is hypothetical, not a real case), but, all things equal, the kid would like to play at Denison.

He is a superior student and a basketball player; he just missed out on scholarship to Patriot League school.

Now, the family doesn't have much money........they'll have to dig deep to send the kid to college. My question is this: Do any of the NCAC schools give better financial aid packages than others, or are the rules so strict that all the packages would approximately be the same?

Or do the winning teams win because their adminsitrations are more flexible in the flexible aid they offer?

Just wondering why some teams always win more than others, whether there are advantages certain teams have.

I don't know, Henry, if there's an appreciable difference in the aid packages that schools offer to athletes.  I wonder if any of us really know, or have anything better than anecdotal evidence to support what we might think.  We have a number of ex-players who post, although they might be unwilling to discuss their own experiences as regards admissions and aid, and we have at least one poster who works in the administration of one of the colleges; maybe they can offer some insight based on solid evidence.

[wally_wabash]

You're barking up the wrong tree, Henry.  I think the overriding theory on this issue in this community is that any school can be as good as they want to be at any sport they want to be.  As has been stated, some institutions place more emphasis on having a quality hoops program, some place an emphasis on having a great swimming program, some place emphasis on football, and others place an equal amount of indifference across the entire athletics program.  it's all about institutional support...some programs get it and some programs don't. 

Focusing on admissions requirements and scholarship packages etc, etc, is a waste of time when trying to figure out why one school is better at a sport than another.  It's the obligation of the athletics department to go find athletes that fit the college's demographic.  Those kids are out there.  Wooster finds them.  Witt finds them.  They don't have any unfair advantage over the rest of the schools in the conference, they're just better at identifying high quality players that fit  into their school than the rest of us are. 

[Witt4ever]

Witt 71
Obe 41

Alleg 72
Wab 69

Cap 68
ONU 57

[Li'l Giant]

Alleg 72
Wab 69

sigh....