MBB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Who I would or wouldn't have on such a team is no more interesting or relevant than any other fan.  But I wouldn't approach the question from a position that the CCIW, its teams, players, and coaches, are the best unless and until proven otherwise.  And I often get the sense that this is the way the D3 world is viewed around here.

They've had a lot of individually talented players over the past decade. That's all this is measuring.

[jscwittfan]

Come on, guys, you know better.  What is the one thing that Pat Coleman has always taught us over the years?  That he is always right, and those who disagree with him with have the smiting gods to answer to.

Now, onto this week's games.  Does anyone think OWU will win in Springfield tomorrow night?  I was originally worried that Witt would look past OWU heading into the first-place clash at Wooster and be prone to defeat, but I think the worst thing OWU did in regards to this game was beating Witt in the first game.  I can't see the Tigers losing this one at home when (presumably) revenge is on their minds.  Thoughts?

[Titan Q]

Just a reminder that the way the D3hoops.com All-American teams are setup up (and always have been), guys like Adam Dauksas and Keelan Amelianovich are not in competition with a Bryan Nelson for spots.  Dauksas is compared with other point-guards, Amelianovich with other wings (G/F's), and Nelson with other low post players (F/C).

The debate should be whether or not Nelson should have made it over guys like Tori Davis/Adam Doll (HM), Rich Melzer/Jason Wiertel (4th team), and Brandon Adair/Joel Kolmodin (3rd team).  Dauksas and Amelianovich did not keep the former Wooster star off the team.  (I know there was some Wiertel vs Nelson discussion above, and that is more on-point.)

[David Collinge]

Come on, guys, you know better.  What is the one thing that Pat Coleman has always taught us over the years?  That he is always right, and those who disagree with him with have the smiting gods to answer to.

As unhappy as I am over this issue, I don't think it's reasonable to believe that Pat sits there smiting those who dare disagree with him, and I am quite certain that he doesn't run a "smiting ring."  After all, my karma actually has gone up since I vented my frustrations.

Now, onto this week's games.  Does anyone think OWU will win in Springfield tomorrow night?  I was originally worried that Witt would look past OWU heading into the first-place clash at Wooster and be prone to defeat, but I think the worst thing OWU did in regards to this game was beating Witt in the first game.  I can't see the Tigers losing this one at home when (presumably) revenge is on their minds.  Thoughts?

I think these two teams are too good for either to "look past" the other.  They are very evenly matched, and it should be a battle to the end.  I certainly think that OWU could win the game, and I wish I could be there to see it.

[kiltedbryan]

OWU-Witt should be a great game.  Certainly there is a revenge factor in play, but at the same time, I imagine that OWU would love to pull off a regular season sweep of Witt (who wouldn't?)    Wooster pulled off a regular season sweep of Witt in '05-06-- no one else has done that to Witt since both Wooster and Earlham turned the feat during the '99-00 season.

(Though, maybe the Tigers should root for the regular season sweep...since we know how that 05-06 team panned out...)    

[Pat Coleman]

Come on, guys, you know better.  What is the one thing that Pat Coleman has always taught us over the years?  That he is always right, and those who disagree with him with have the smiting gods to answer to.

As unhappy as I am over this issue, I don't think it's reasonable to believe that Pat sits there smiting those who dare disagree with him, and I am quite certain that he doesn't run a "smiting ring."  After all, my karma actually has gone up since I vented my frustrations.

Indeed -- I think people with well-reasoned arguments tend to get rewarded better than people who primarily use backbiting sarcasm. Posters who follow other people around the board just to engage them in arguments tend to have negative karma.

[jscwittfan]

Indeed -- I think people with well-reasoned arguments tend to get rewarded better than people who primarily use backbiting sarcasm.

You know, when you put it that way, you kind of make a point.  I mean, who ever would have thought that sarcasm could be criticized by using . . . sarcasm!   

Posters who follow other people around the board just to engage them in arguments tend to have negative karma.

Not sure what you mean there, considering the only times I've ever gotten into arguments with you (or anyone else, for that matter) were on NCAC boards, with the exception of that time you posted that Amherst article without giving proper credit and I commented on their board.

And quite honestly, I gave up on caring about my own karma a long time ago.  Sure, some people get it because they have great points and insight, but most of the time, it's just a reflection of how many posters from your school there are.

Sorry everybody for the sidetrack.  Back to our regularly scheduled NCAC discusson...

[Pat Coleman]

Dunno, man -- you specifically interjected into conversations you weren't participating in twice in the past couple of weeks just to give me a hard time. They may be on NCAC boards but it's fairly clear that my involvement is the only reason you chose to speak up.

Sorry that I inspire such behavior from you.

[Gregory Sager]

Just a reminder that the way the D3hoops.com All-American teams are setup up (and always have been), guys like Adam Dauksas and Keelan Amelianovich are not in competition with a Bryan Nelson for spots.  Dauksas is compared with other point-guards, Amelianovich with other wings (G/F's), and Nelson with other low post players (F/C).

The debate should be whether or not Nelson should have made it over guys like Tori Davis/Adam Doll (HM), Rich Melzer/Jason Wiertel (4th team), and Brandon Adair/Joel Kolmodin (3rd team).  Dauksas and Amelianovich did not keep the former Wooster star off the team.  (I know there was some Wiertel vs Nelson discussion above, and that is more on-point.)

What Bob says is true, although the details are actually a bit different. The positions d3hoops.com uses aren't "point guard", "wing", and "low-post", they're "guard", "forward", and "center". The idea is to get two guards, two forwards, and a center onto each team, even though the actual players named don't always strictly correspond to a point guard, an off guard, a small forward, a power forward, and a center. This is in order to give Pat some flexibility in creating the teams. F'rinstance, the capsule that I wrote for Jason Wiertel as a part of his being named to the All-Decade team mentions that he was a power forward, even though he's listed on the All-Decade team as a center. Wiertel played alongside a pair of true centers at Carthage: Bill Garner during Wiertel's freshman and sophomore seasons, and Jim Oboikowich during Wiertel's junior and senior seasons. Garner and Oboikowich were (and are!) seriously burly individuals whose job for the Redmen was to rebound, set baseline screens, defend opposing centers, and to never under any circumstances move further than eight feet from the basket at either end of the floor. Wiertel was technically the center whenever Bosko Djurickovic went small and took Garner or Oboikowich out of the game and put in an extra guard such as Brett Nishibayashi or Bart Fabian, but the typical Carthage lineup during the Redmen's glory years featured Garner or Oboikowich at the 5 (center) and Wiertel at the 4 (power forward).

I don't have a problem with Wiertel being named as a center rather than at his true position, because the principle Pat employs is this: Could these five individuals play together as a team? The answer is yes -- if you put Michael Crotty, Kyle Myrick, Keelan Amelianovich, Rich Melzer, and Jason Wiertel on the floor together in uniforms of the same color, they would slide easily into their listed 1-2-3-4-5 roles and be quite effective in doing so.

(As an aside, wooscotsfan said that Wiertel could not stop Bryan Nelson when Carthage and Wooster met in the 2001 tourney. Are you sure that Wiertel was guarding Nelson? It could've easily been Oboikowich who drew that duty, inasmuch as Nelson was Wooster's primary interior threat. I wasn't at that game, so I'm just asking.)

The only time I ever saw Bryan Nelson play he was not impressive. Then again, I'm not going to judge him based upon that one game. I know that he was a great player, because the numbers don't lie and because lots of people in whose opinions I put stock have told me that he was a great player. If anything, I respect him more because he played hurt; I have a tendency to personally favor players who play through debilitating injuries (e.g., Joel Kolmodin of Wheaton). I would simply caution those of you who are doing their utmost to defend Bryan Nelson to avoid casting aspersions upon any other player based upon having seen him play one game, in the face of all other evidence to the contrary (i.e., Derek Reich was "vastly overrated", in spite of the fact that he was a three-time All-American first-teamer, four-time UAA MVP, and scored 2,254 career points). After all, a player doesn't even get to be a part of this discussion unless he was truly great.

[Titan Q]

I don't have a problem with Wiertel being named as a center rather than at his true position, because the principle Pat employs is this: Could these five individuals play together as a team? The answer is yes -- if you put Michael Crotty, Kyle Myrick, Keelan Amelianovich, Rich Melzer, and Jason Wiertel on the floor together in uniforms of the same color, they would slide easily into their listed 1-2-3-4-5 roles and be quite effective in doing so.

No matter what we call the positions, yes, this is really the important point about the D3hoops.com All-American teams - Pat & Co. construct teams that could actually play together.  I like this approach a lot because, a) it values the importance of each position, and  b) it allows for like players to be compared. 

Many (most?) All-American/All-conference teams just take the 5 players with the best offensive stats.  The D3hoops.com approach considers the importance of a point-guard, for example, who may only score 12 ppg, but dishes out 5-6 assists per game, takes care of the basketball, and is the floor general.  Most AA squads would take a 2-guard who scores 18 ppg over most PG's.  Preseason 1st Team All-American Andrew Olson (Amherst) is a great example - just 11.2 ppg this year, but 7.2 apg, and a 2.1 A:TO ratio.  Olson probably doesn't make a lot of your typically structured AA teams.  (Now, every now and then, D3hoops will have two SG's on one team when the case is compelling, but I think you will find most 5-man teams have a PG.)

In the frontcourt, even though D3hoops picks two forwards and a center, it's still clear from history, they try to pick one Small Forward type (either a pure wing like Amelianovich, or a 3/4 type, like Dworak or Kalsow), and then two "low post" players, who I refer to as "F/C's."  Obviously with these guys, the big stats are points, rebounds, and probably FG%.  Again, the way D3hoops.com does it, they can evaluate similar players, as opposed to comparing John Grotberg, who shoots a million 3's per game for Grinnell, to Dan Russ, who used to bang down low for Wittenberg.

I think all of this is very important in the Bryan Nelson discussion, because obviously Bryan Nelson fits into the two F/C spots.  He wasn't a 3/4...he was a 4/5.  The All-Decade team doesn't mean that Nelson wasn't considered one of the top 25 players of the past 10 years -- it means he wasn't considered one of the top 10 4/5's.  I think as you really dig into the merits of Adam Doll, Tori Davis, Rich Melzer, Jason Wiertel, etc., you find that they all have tremendous resumes (as does Nelson) and that there was no way to avoid leaving off great players.  I don't think IWU's Zach Freeman should have made the team over the players chosen, for example, but Freeman was an absolute stud...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2EANANcrj8

There are a bunch a tremendous D3 players not on the All-Decade team.

[pennstghs]

(Though, maybe the Tigers should root for the regular season sweep...since we know how that 05-06 team panned out...)      

ok, you win but i'd take that season back to watch again any day of the week....

As for these "All-Decade" teams, maybe it is an attribute that no Wooster and Wittenberg players were selected as they are "team" basketball teams, so look at the overall success of the two programs and that is our satisfaction.

On to game of importance #1 for Wittenberg for the week. As noted before i think this will be a very competitive game and a good warmup for Saturday-i don't think this game will fatigue Witt as we've seen the players usually step up to a whole other level for Witt/Wooster games...

And leave jscwittfan alone-we can't help it we're completely outnumbered

[BigRedGrad]

If I were the Scots coach I would play the starters for 5 minutes tonight against the Big Red.  Denison only has 4 games left for the year.  Getting a back screen from Elder and Cooper ends up in the 3 row of the bleachers would not be a good thing.  Coming off his POW performance you never know.

Wooster was up by 30 at half the last time these teams played.  The reserves added another 10 points in the second half.  If it were up to me I would not take the chance to getting ANYONE hurt.  Not that they would, but there is always a chance.  Sit your guns down and go for home field advantage Saturday night.

Denison has NOTHING to lose.  The Scots have everything to lose if they lost a key player.

[ScotsFan]

And quite honestly, I gave up on caring about my own karma a long time ago.  Sure, some people get it because they have great points and insight, but most of the time, it's just a reflection of how many posters from your school there are.

Or if you are one of the 'popular' kids...

I'm with you on the karma thing jsc.  I think it's more of a popularity contest than anything.  There's only one person who I will admit to 'smiting' on a regular basis and that is 'Spence' from over on the Baseball boards.  And I'm far from alone as his -179 karma rating will attest...  But beyond that, I really don't pay much attention to it.  What does it really prove anyways.  I mean, jscwittfan doesn't come off to me as someone fitting Pat's description of posters who have negative karma:

I think people with well-reasoned arguments tend to get rewarded better than people who primarily use backbiting sarcasm. Posters who follow other people around the board just to engage them in arguments tend to have negative karma.

Yet, with his -18 rating one might jump to that assumption and be quicker to smite him...  I just personally think the whole karma thing is silly and really don't pay all that much attention to it.

What it all boils down to is that you shouldn't upset the 'Karma Police'   8)

Sorry about the rant.  Now back to more important NCAC discussions...

[ScotsFan]

Now, onto this week's games.  Does anyone think OWU will win in Springfield tomorrow night?  I was originally worried that Witt would look past OWU heading into the first-place clash at Wooster and be prone to defeat, but I think the worst thing OWU did in regards to this game was beating Witt in the first game.  I can't see the Tigers losing this one at home when (presumably) revenge is on their minds.  Thoughts?

Indeed!

As far as your question about who will win tonight, I haven't made up my mind.  Witt has shown they seem to play in spurts this season (except against Wooster  ).  Look at the Hiram game for example.  Witt jumps out to an 18 point lead at halftime only to let the Terriers rally to within two before icing the game at the ft line to win by six.  I just think if Witt can play a complete game, they should win. 

One other question I have is what the heck got into OWU last Wednesday vs. Wabash?  Was it a matter of Wabash just not showing up, or did OWU pretty much play a flawless game of basketball?  If OWU plays like they they did vs. Wabash, I would think they would be tough for anybody to beat them.  The problem is, that's about the only time they've played like that all season...

All in all, I think it boils down to defense.  Witt can't afford any defensive lapses like the one that occurred in the Hiram game.  Should be a real good game tonight down in Springfield.

As for this game fatiguing Witt for Saturday's game...  As penn put it, don't count on it because Bill Brown always finds a way to have his players ready to play on a whole other level when it comes to the Witt/Woo game.  As I've always said, something is triggered when Witt players see the Black and Old Gold.

[ECHOOPER]

What's up guys.  I am begining to post on the forum.  I am a former player for the Quakers, who was refered to as a dirty player a few years ago.  I had read all of your posts though out my years at Earlham, enjoyed some and disagreed with some.  Buts that not here nor there.

But something that I wanted to bring up that was in the article on the front page of d3hoops.  I was regarding the strength of schedules of teams in D3.  Here are the strength of schedules for the teams in the conference.  I wanted to hear form you guys about the schedules of the teams, where they rank, and how our teams would far in the tourament.  Do you guys think that the scheduling these teams do hurt them when it comes to tournament time and how they far if they make the tournament?


WOOSTER  133
WITTENBERG 352
OHIO WESLYAN 74
WABASH 81
KENYON 267
ALLEGHENY 271
HIRAM 101
OBERLIN 378
DENISON 253
EARLHAM 292