MBB: Coast 2 Coast Athletic Conference

[CNU85]

well that got this board a little more active!

[Swish3]

On average this season, CNU has been called for 19.48 fouls per game, so let's call it 20...their highest one game foul total was either 28 or 29...based on these stats, CNU fans can absolutely gripe about 41!  Earlier in the season at CNU, York and CNU were called for 23 and 19 fouls respectively...different officials, but same teams...at York, they get called for 3 more fouls while CNU's called for 22 more...makes no sense!

[Pat Coleman]

What were the numbers in this game at the end of 40 minutes?

[D3RetiredHooper]

On average this season, CNU has been called for 19.48 fouls per game, so let's call it 20...their highest one game foul total was either 28 or 29...based on these stats, CNU fans can absolutely gripe about 41!  Earlier in the season at CNU, York and CNU were called for 23 and 19 fouls respectively...different officials, but same teams...at York, they get called for 3 more fouls while CNU's called for 22 more...makes no sense!

1. The game went into double OT so 10 extra minutes probably added to the 41 total count at the end of the game for CNU.

2. Why are we to assume the officials weren't poor and didn't call enough fouls when the game was played at CNU as opposed to Saturday when the game was called more tightly?  Dave referenced earlier the national head of officials wants the game to be called tight and allow for freedom of movement with cutters and ball handlers on offense.  He also mentioned CNU's lack of ability to adjust their defensive physicality of holding cutters and hand-checking ball handlers through game flow. 

3. York has Jared Wagner who is the Player of the Year in the CAC, probably going to win Player of the Year in the Mid-Atlantic region, and possibly a candidate for National Player of the Year/First Team All-American.  He drives the ball constantly in their offense and is really hard to stay in front of if the game is officiated properly. He drew a large portion of the fouls committed by CNU.

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

rewatched the last 5 mins of regulation and both OT frames.  there was a CNU shot that barely nicked the rim (in 1OT <0:50 to go) and CNU got offensive rebound.  York coach and staff yelled very loudly about clock being reset to 20.  I will say from behind clock operators (seated 2nd row), it was really hard to see ball touch ("nick") rim but somehow clock operator saw it and reset clock CORRECTLY.  kudos to shot clock operator (York personnel,  I assume with a green shirt).  I think that conferences should consider employing an additional referee as the shot clock operator in late season conference games.  i know this is a cost but non-bias clock operation during critical conference games would seem to warrant it.  I assume there are referees as shot clock operators during conference tournament and NCAA tournament.

As for referee quality, crew called a lot of "ticky tacky" fouls as per their right and interpretation.  I disagree that calling more "hand check" type fouls reduces physical play in games.  I would rather the NCAA emphasize on calling contact in paint more often.  Too many times,  I have watched the lead referee miss pushes by offensive players on rebounding opportunities.
as for adjustments, this crew did not like to call offensive fouls either (I recall only 1 charge and 1 illegal screen).  both adjustments that York/CNU should have seen in 1st 5 mins of game as clearly the crew was enforcing "letter of the law" rule book.

Upon re-watching 2OT blocking call on CNU #31, his foot was clearly on the line when i stopped still frame.  so that call was spot on.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

rewatched the last 5 mins of regulation and both OT frames.  there was a CNU shot that barely nicked the rim (in 1OT <0:50 to go) and CNU got offensive rebound.  York coach and staff yelled very loudly about clock being reset to 20.  I will say from behind clock operators (seated 2nd row), it was really hard to see ball touch ("nick") rim but somehow clock operator saw it and reset clock CORRECTLY.  kudos to shot clock operator (York personnel,  I assume with a green shirt).  I think that conferences should consider employing an additional referee as the shot clock operator in late season conference games.  i know this is a cost but non-bias clock operation during critical conference games would seem to warrant it.  I assume there are referees as shot clock operators during conference tournament and NCAA tournament.

The costs of adding more officials for games is significant. Official costs are one of the biggest increases (and I have no problem with their pay being increased) athletic departments have to deal with. Adding another to run clocks (and there are usually two people running the clocks) I just don't think makes any sense.

And no ... referees do not run shock clocks in tournaments. There is a fourth official, but they are an extra set of eyes and someone to converse with. That is all.

As for referee quality, crew called a lot of "ticky tacky" fouls as per their right and interpretation.  I disagree that calling more "hand check" type fouls reduces physical play in games.  I would rather the NCAA emphasize on calling contact in paint more often.  Too many times,  I have watched the lead referee miss pushes by offensive players on rebounding opportunities.
as for adjustments, this crew did not like to call offensive fouls either (I recall only 1 charge and 1 illegal screen).  both adjustments that York/CNU should have seen in 1st 5 mins of game as clearly the crew was enforcing "letter of the law" rule book.

Upon re-watching 2OT blocking call on CNU #31, his foot was clearly on the line when i stopped still frame.  so that call was spot on.

The NCAA has emphasized contact in the paint and for the most part it has been cleaned up. That doesn't mean it couldn't be called more often, but that has been an emphasis.

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

been to many games where officials need to stop play (sometimes 3 or 4 times per game) due to shot clock errors (e.g. reset to 30 instead of 20 after ball hits rim but offensive rebound).  shot clock operator is part of officiating crew and expected to use know the rules to start/stop/reset clock correctly.  simple ones like reset to 20 on offensive rebound is not an interpretation like many fouls are.
totally understand cost implications and shot clock errors have small effect on outcome of most games.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

been to many games where officials need to stop play (sometimes 3 or 4 times per game) due to shot clock errors (e.g. reset to 30 instead of 20 after ball hits rim but offensive rebound).  shot clock operator is part of officiating crew and expected to use know the rules to start/stop/reset clock correctly.  simple ones like reset to 20 on offensive rebound is not an interpretation like many fouls are.
totally understand cost implications and shot clock errors have small effect on outcome of most games.

Yep ... and some places like my alma mater have decided to go away from student-tables (which it had been since before I attended the school) and go with "professional" tables, but even those individuals make mistakes. They make mistakes in D1 games - even in the NCAA tournament. It happens.

The reset to 20 - there are multiple buttons on the devices, I've watched an operator intend to reset to 30 and mistakenly hit the 20; I've seen them try to reset to 20 and it goes to 30 because they hit the wrong button. It happens.

Remember, these are also new rules and in the last two years the shot clock rules have changed multiple times and are not consistent across both genders ... so there has been a lot of changes even between games. I had an official come up to me a few years back when a rash of new rules like coaches not calling timeouts in the men's game was adopted and he said, "I am all for the rule changes and I'm doing my best, but people have to remember that for 20 years my brain has heard "timeout" and we blew the play dead. Tough to untrain 20 years of muscle/brain memory."

It isn't great, but it happens. And paying for an official to run the clocks isn't a guarantee to fix it. The table at my alma mater is run by people trained in the operation and do it for multiple colleges in the area. They make mistakes. Refs make mistakes calling fouls and infractions ... you think they won't make mistakes with the clock operations?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

When I go to Swarthmore, the seat they have reserved for me is right next to the PA announcer at the table with the clock operator and scorer.  Over the holiday break, without their normal student workers, a lot of the AD staff had to fill in.  I was impressed with the patience and attention the refs gave to those folks who were genuinely doing their best.  The refs - at least the good ones - keep a pretty close eye on how the clock is running.  They know how to do their job.  I think I've said it here before, but once you get deep into the NCAA tournament they use the ref controlled clock anyway - refs start the clock from a device on their belt; that solves any hometown edge that might occur.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

When I go to Swarthmore, the seat they have reserved for me is right next to the PA announcer at the table with the clock operator and scorer.  Over the holiday break, without their normal student workers, a lot of the AD staff had to fill in.  I was impressed with the patience and attention the refs gave to those folks who were genuinely doing their best.  The refs - at least the good ones - keep a pretty close eye on how the clock is running.  They know how to do their job.  I think I've said it here before, but once you get deep into the NCAA tournament they use the ref controlled clock anyway - refs start the clock from a device on their belt; that solves any hometown edge that might occur.

Fort Wayne at the earliest they use the belt-devices. But those aren't perfect either. Basically, they have a belt-pack with a button on it to help start the clock - though I need to figure out exactly how that works because the clock operator I don't think does nothing and it can't take all three refs to start the clock; I know the button at least "activates" something. The whistle then is then what stops the clock - the sound of the whistle to be exact. But those are very expensive systems. The irony being that Salem introduced them to DIII years ahead of DI even implenting them in their tournament or at a lot of their Power Five facilities.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

First Regional Rankings are out: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2020/02/men-regional-rankings-first

[Swish3]

On average this season, CNU has been called for 19.48 fouls per game, so let's call it 20...their highest one game foul total was either 28 or 29...based on these stats, CNU fans can absolutely gripe about 41!  Earlier in the season at CNU, York and CNU were called for 23 and 19 fouls respectively...different officials, but same teams...at York, they get called for 3 more fouls while CNU's called for 22 more...makes no sense!

1. The game went into double OT so 10 extra minutes probably added to the 41 total count at the end of the game for CNU.

2. Why are we to assume the officials weren't poor and didn't call enough fouls when the game was played at CNU as opposed to Saturday when the game was called more tightly?  Dave referenced earlier the national head of officials wants the game to be called tight and allow for freedom of movement with cutters and ball handlers on offense.  He also mentioned CNU's lack of ability to adjust their defensive physicality of holding cutters and hand-checking ball handlers through game flow. 

3. York has Jared Wagner who is the Player of the Year in the CAC, probably going to win Player of the Year in the Mid-Atlantic region, and possibly a candidate for National Player of the Year/First Team All-American.  He drives the ball constantly in their offense and is really hard to stay in front of if the game is officiated properly. He drew a large portion of the fouls committed by CNU.

1.  True...in looking quickly at the two overtime periods, I believe CNU was called for 13 fouls...that's a lot of fouls in 10 minutes, though.

2.  ...because the season statistics prove otherwise...CNU was called for 8 more fouls than they average in regulation, plus 13 in overtime...that's excessive.

3.  Wagner's good, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was the conference player of the year, but I think POY in the MA is a stretch...a potential candidate for National POY/First Team AA is an even bigger stretch.

[Swish3]

CNU and York will likely win their last regular season games on Wednesday night, which means a coin flip will decide who gets the #1 seed in the conference tournament.  I really hate that pure luck will decide something this significant....

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

CNU and York will likely win their last regular season games on Wednesday night, which means a coin flip will decide who gets the #1 seed in the conference tournament.  I really hate that pure luck will decide something this significant....

I thought the CAC tiebreaker was more involved to avoid the coin flip.

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

CNU and York will likely win their last regular season games on Wednesday night, which means a coin flip will decide who gets the #1 seed in the conference tournament.  I really hate that pure luck will decide something this significant....

I thought the CAC tiebreaker was more involved to avoid the coin flip.

I do not recall last time CAC did coin flip for #1 seed, if ever, for WBB